Spartan wont feed SWC

[Ryan N]

I have a Spartan 45 that has been very reliable. I have a little over 3K of RN and RDFP through it. I recently tried some Bear Creek 200gr moly loaded to 1.250 OAL. I had 1 out or 4 FTF. The noses were getting caught on the feedramp. I have been told by many that if a 1911 wont feed SWC, then there is a problem with the gun.

Is my OAL too long? The crimp is about .03 behind the bullet shoulder.

Any suggestions?

[Merlin Orr]

I load them with about a thumbnails thickness from the bullet shoulder. If you have good mags with the feed ramps set up to the correct dimensions that should do it.

If not, I would send my gun ( and a hundred rounds or so) to a gunsmith and have the thing tuned a little. Most of the time it is just breaking sharp edges.....

[98006]

Make a long dud and keep shortening it till you feel they are working well in your gun.

[Ryan N]

Thanks, I will set them back some. BTW, my mags are Wilsons and Powermags.

[old506]

Using the exact same bullet (Bear Creek) as you mentioned, mine are 1.24. Thumbnail, is correct. You also want a smooth transition from lead to case mouth, I crimp the case mouth into the bullet so that there are no edges. I don't have any leading problem either, in fact, I don't clean the barrel. I use a chamber brush and then push a clean patch through the barrel and that is it. I have shot thousands of these bullets. They make a fine hole in a target too.

Edited October 11, 2011 by old506

[Ryan N]

Thanks guys. I have loaded up 50 rounds like you have stated. I will try them soon.

Do you feel that they are just as reliable as RN bullets? I must say that I am a little leary of them now. If RN will feed 1000 rounds without a hitch and SWC will only feed 990 rounds without a hitch, then I will want to go with RN.

[LPatterson]

A properly tuned 1911 wil feed empty cases but they are few and far between. Before reading Rob Leatham's notes on bullet weights I used a 200 gr SWC but have since switched to a 230gr RN. Feeds 100% and it is softer.

Rob's Answer:

This bullet weight question comes up frequently. Think of the muzzle of your gun as the nozzle of a rocket engine. As the bullet leaves the muzzle, you have pressure built up from the burning, expanding powder. If you have a comp on your gun, you want this pressure to be high and in large volume. The compensator simply redirects a great portion of this pressure in a direction that offsets some of the muzzle flip.

If you do NOT have a comp, you want this pressure to be as low as possible and have as little of it as you can. A heavy bullet, such as a 230 grain in a .45, will reduce your powder charge over a lighter projectile, like a 200 grain bullet. The smaller powder charge generally creates less pressure and volume than a larger charge. You can also use faster burning powders with heavier bullets, as you require less velocity. All of this reduces the thrust of your rocket engine.

Another factor that comes into play here, is the burning rate of the powder. A propellant that has a quick-to-peak pressure time, generally drops pressure faster. This means, by the time the bullet does leave the barrel, and the rocket engine effect happens, you have less force to power that engine. A powder with a slow-to-peak pressure time, usually has greater force as the bullet leaves the muzzle. You want the rocket to be as weak as possible if you don't have a comp, hence I prefer the use of heavy bullets, fast burn rate powders with quick-to-peak pressure time. Remember, it doesn't matter how high the peak pressure is at it's greatest point, assuming that it is at a safe level, only how high it is when the bullet leaves the muzzle. RL

[old506]

I have zero problems. When I started loading them I had the same issues you are dealing with. Once I figured out how to get them to run I have had no problems. I can't even remember when I had a malf in a match or range that was due to bullet profile. Just follow the above and PM me if you have problems, I have a couple of pics if you need them.

Bear Creek also has a 200gr RN bullet (hollow base). I have shot a couplhundreded rounds of those. I loaded them just like the SWC and had zero problems and I felt they are every bit as accurate as the SWC. The 200gr RN are the same price as the SWC but haven't't switched. Between the two, I can't really come up with any bidifferenceses as far as an advantage go. The SWC makes a nice crisp hole in a target but I did have an edge hit with an overlay used that was ruled as a miss as one of the arguments was that I was using SWC. It was just off the scoring perf so the "center" of the bullet couldn't be found? I do wonder if I had been using a RN bullet if it would have went my way? It all evens out in the end though, I guess.

Thanks guys. I have loaded up 50 rounds like you have stated. I will try them soon.

Do you feel that they are just as reliable as RN bullets? I must say that I am a little leary of them now. If RN will feed 1000 rounds without a hitch and SWC will only feed 990 rounds without a hitch, then I will want to go with RN.

[GregJ]

OP, when you state " The noses were getting caught on the feedramp ", are you referring to a 3-point jam?

Here's a pic of what one looks like (found on 'net).

I've found on my Kimbers, that if my crimp was too much, I would get a lot of 3-pt-jams. My crimp for 200gr SWC and RNF is .4695 - .470, and they run perfectly. When I crimp looser, around .472 - .473, my Kimbers would choke on the 200gr SWC.

[Corey]

I had a bunhc of feeding problem earlier this year with both of my 1911s and SWC bullets finally gave up and swtiched to RN and they both feed like a champ. It was weird bc it was the same ammo as last year.

[Ryan N]

OP, when you state " The noses were getting caught on the feedramp ", are you referring to a 3-point jam?

I've found on my Kimbers, that if my crimp was too much, I would get a lot of 3-pt-jams. My crimp for 200gr SWC and RNF is .4695 - .470, and they run perfectly. When I crimp looser, around .472 - .473, my Kimbers would choke on the 200gr SWC.

3 point jams are not quite what I was getting. From what I recall, the nose of the bullet was hitting the feedramp and not hardly even beginning to be stripped out of the mag. After thinking about it, I wish I knew what mag I was using. I have only had one range trip using SWC. I was not prerared to troubleshoot this issue. Next time, I will look more closely to try to see exactly what was happening.

Other things to consider; I am using the stock recoil spring(3K rounds old) and my feedramp has been polished.

[Ryan N]

I had a bunhc of feeding problem earlier this year with both of my 1911s and SWC bullets finally gave up and swtiched to RN and they both feed like a champ. It was weird bc it was the same ammo as last year.

This is kind of where I am headed. If I have one ounce of trouble out of the 50 SWC that I have loaded to the new OAL, I am going back to RN.

[superdude]

some guns are picky about what they'll feed, and flat nosed bullets test the gun's limits, for a variety of reasons. sometimes the gun's feed ramp is not deep enough. see this link:

http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=333094

[twodownzero]

If your gun won't run with properly loaded SWCs, you need to send it back to STI and have them fix it.

[GregJ]

With my Kimber, I put in a lot of trial and error to get SWC to run well in it. RNF ran just fine, but my son liked to run SWC in his, and having two different loads was a PITA. After a lot of tweaking the crimp, OAL, and tuning the extractor, I finally got SWC to run very well in my Gold Match II. They always ran well in my son's Classic Target. I think the chamber in the GM was a little tighter than the Target. I wonder if this might be part of the problem you're running into? I wanted to make SWC run in mine, call it a learning experience. If you dont have the time or energy, run RNF and call it good.

[Tul9033]

I load the Bear Creek 200gr SWC in my STI Spartan with no problems. I use the Novak mags. My load is BC 200gr SWC, 1.25 OAL, 4.8gr of Titegroup, and the Lee taper crimp.

[Ryan N]

I tried the shorter(1.230) OAL and the problem persisted. The nose of the bullet is hanging where the feed ramp transitions to the barrel ramp. I feel like the barrel ramp could be "tweeked" to fix the problem. I will likely send the gun back to STI.

[DinosaurMikeGolf]

I tried the shorter(1.230) OAL and the problem persisted. The nose of the bullet is hanging where the feed ramp transitions to the barrel ramp. I feel like the barrel ramp could be "tweeked" to fix the problem. I will likely send the gun back to STI.

Try cast round nose instead of SWC. I had the same problem using Truncated Cone cast 230 grain bullets. Problem stopped after switching to 230 grain cast Round nose.

[Ryan N]

I tried the shorter(1.230) OAL and the problem persisted. The nose of the bullet is hanging where the feed ramp transitions to the barrel ramp. I feel like the barrel ramp could be "tweeked" to fix the problem. I will likely send the gun back to STI.

Try cast round nose instead of SWC. I had the same problem using Truncated Cone cast 230 grain bullets. Problem stopped after switching to 230 grain cast Round nose.

I have shot 3700 rounds of 200gr and 230gr round nose through this gun and it has been great with those.

[superdude]

I tried the shorter(1.230) OAL and the problem persisted. The nose of the bullet is hanging where the feed ramp transitions to the barrel ramp. I feel like the barrel ramp could be "tweeked" to fix the problem. I will likely send the gun back to STI.

Aha! this sounds like the classic barrel throating issue. if that's where she's jamming a good throating job should fix it.

[DinosaurMikeGolf]

I tried the shorter(1.230) OAL and the problem persisted. The nose of the bullet is hanging where the feed ramp transitions to the barrel ramp. I feel like the barrel ramp could be "tweeked" to fix the problem. I will likely send the gun back to STI.

Try cast round nose instead of SWC. I had the same problem using Truncated Cone cast 230 grain bullets. Problem stopped after switching to 230 grain cast Round nose.

I have shot 3700 rounds of 200gr and 230gr round nose through this gun and it has been great with those.

I have put over 6k of 230 gr rn through mine.

[johnnybravo]

Your 200 gr swcl bullets should be seated at 0.920" from the case head to the shoulder. So, instead of measuring the OAL, just measure up to the shoulder to get this measurement.

[redbird1976]

OP, when you state " The noses were getting caught on the feedramp ", are you referring to a 3-point jam?

Here's a pic of what one looks like (found on 'net).

I've found on my Kimbers, that if my crimp was too much, I would get a lot of 3-pt-jams. My crimp for 200gr SWC and RNF is .4695 - .470, and they run perfectly. When I crimp looser, around .472 - .473, my Kimbers would choke on the 200gr SWC.

Years ago I had a similar problem from a Kimber Classic Custom. It turned out that the extractor needed to be be radiused and polished. Five minutes with a file and some emory cloth and it would run anything.

[wes777]

Posted 11 October 2011 - 10:38 AM

I have a Spartan 45 that has been very reliable. I have a little over 3K of RN and RDFP through it. I recently tried some Bear Creek 200gr moly loaded to 1.250 OAL. I had 1 out or 4 FTF. The noses were getting caught on the feedramp. I have been told by many that if a 1911 wont feed SWC, then there is a problem with the gun.

Is my OAL too long? The crimp is about .03 behind the bullet shoulder.

Any suggestions?

Ryan, recently made the same move in my STI Trojan. did a 50/50 load of 100. 50 with lee fcd and 50 with dillon tcd. 2 of 50 with lee die had the same issue that you are having. the 50 with the tcd did not. Definitely make sure that there is an ever-so-slight lip above the case mouth and taper crimp, continue testing until the case will fall into the chamber and sit flush.... then see if it will fall out without any jostling. I dont know about your spartan, but my trojan can be a picky B.

[Ryan N]

Posted 11 October 2011 - 10:38 AM

I have a Spartan 45 that has been very reliable. I have a little over 3K of RN and RDFP through it. I recently tried some Bear Creek 200gr moly loaded to 1.250 OAL. I had 1 out or 4 FTF. The noses were getting caught on the feedramp. I have been told by many that if a 1911 wont feed SWC, then there is a problem with the gun.

Is my OAL too long? The crimp is about .03 behind the bullet shoulder.

Any suggestions?

Ryan, recently made the same move in my STI Trojan. did a 50/50 load of 100. 50 with lee fcd and 50 with dillon tcd. 2 of 50 with lee die had the same issue that you are having. the 50 with the tcd did not. Definitely make sure that there is an ever-so-slight lip above the case mouth and taper crimp, continue testing until the case will fall into the chamber and sit flush.... then see if it will fall out without any jostling. I dont know about your spartan, but my trojan can be a picky B.

Thanks for sharing Wes.