Angus Hobdell Posted March 9, 2003 Share Posted March 9, 2003 Why is it when you are already to shoot a match, everything is prepared the training has been good, you are all set. when you get to the match they tell you that you have to do something, other then shooting. Splanation Yes Maybe. The course of fire call for you to throw a grenade into a bucket. You have two chances if you miss you get a 40 point penalty or have to shoot 4 extra targets. How does this relate to shooting skills? If I wanted to throw grenades i would ahve joined the army. Hey course designer one and all, lets keep shooting matches smoething to do with shooting. Wow i feel so much better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38supPat Posted March 9, 2003 Share Posted March 9, 2003 Exactly, well put! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufus The Bum Posted March 9, 2003 Share Posted March 9, 2003 Hi Angus, I agree with you to some extent that shooting should be exactly that....Shooting. But I think it breaks up the monotony of things when you have a starting position that might differ from the accepted way of doing things. We shot a stage similar to what you described, we had to blindly throw a grenade over 3 or 4 rows of walls into an area seperated by a fault line and, proceded to shoot our way towards the rear of the stage, weaving in and around the walls, no problem, but where there grenade landed dictated whether or not you had to shoot those targets, if it landed in the box (which was about 20ft by 20ft) You didn't have to shoot those targets (you automatically got 2A's for every target) Keep in mind you had to throw blindly a grenade about 30 feet over a whole bunch of walls (easier said than done, believe me) But if it bounced of the box, you had to shoot everything. Fun, comical stages are occasionally good and lighten things up, AS LONG AS it doesn't take the place of the shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Anderson Posted March 9, 2003 Share Posted March 9, 2003 That sounds pretty bogus... I think SOMETIMES, stage designers lose their way. SA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted March 9, 2003 Share Posted March 9, 2003 Rufus I agree 100% with Angus. I will give you another example: I started a stage sitting in an automobile, and at the beep, I got out of the car, ran to the trunk and got my pistol out of a box to start the stage. Isn't that why they now have concealed carry laws? Kind of like American Express, don't leave home with it in the trunk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBF Posted March 9, 2003 Share Posted March 9, 2003 If I had to get into the trunk I would grab my rifle... Travis F. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38supPat Posted March 9, 2003 Share Posted March 9, 2003 If we want to play the "oh yeah well I shot a stage that..." At one level three match I went to, they had us retrieve the gun from a drawer, retrieve the mag from another (unloaded) then retrieve the bullets from the bottom of the drawer...load the mag...load the gun...then shoot 3 targets. High hit factors on the stage barely started with a 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Posted March 9, 2003 Share Posted March 9, 2003 Part of the challenge inherent in any IPSC course is "getting to the shooting". I personally like steel matches, because the precursor to the shooting is usually just "beep". As far as IPSC shooting is concerned, somewhere between starting seated in a chair reading "Atlas Shrugged" in toto, and reacting to a simple"beep" there is room for a reasonable scenario. It's kinda cool, once in a while, to start astride a bicycle or something. Basically, people who design courses that reward grenade throwing, briefcase opening, or even excessive running, are encouraging people to win by other means than marksmanship. I totally agree. Get to the shooting! Then make the shooting a real challenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Dunlop Posted March 9, 2003 Share Posted March 9, 2003 I don't have a problem with retrieving a gun or mag from a reasonably practical place, like a desk draw or briefcase, but to be penalised because the mop wasn't in the bucket, the rope on the hook, fish in the bucket, briefcases in the box and the grenades (I have encountered all of these situations!!!!!) is totally ludicrous. At one Nationals we started holding a fishing rod, with a fish on the line in a pond. On the signal you had to put the fish in a bucket behind you, draw and engage, I just dropped the line and took the procedural. The course designer witnessed my actions and spent 10 mins arguing with the RO that I simply cannot do that, the fish MUST be in the bucket. I'm still in awe of that match! P.D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufus The Bum Posted March 9, 2003 Share Posted March 9, 2003 Just remember, it's all about having fun. I don't know about rest of the clubs across the U.S. but stage setters are highly appreciated around here because too many people show up at match time, stand around shooting the bull with their buddies and don't help out in the least, then complain about the stages that are set. If you want stages that are to your liking, then show up a little early to help set stages. I don't mean to start an argument in any way and, I hope my comments aren't taken as such, but I get sick and tired of people complaining about stages. If you don't help set stages, then you have no reason to complain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Dunlop Posted March 9, 2003 Share Posted March 9, 2003 Rufus, my post was not intended to sound ungrateful for the efforts of the few. I have run matches of my own and been involved in several major matches, not to mention ROing plenty. I just want to illustrate how easy it is to loose sight of the objective, and the crazy places this can lead you. I can't see the fun in training for a match and loosing because you didn't manage to put the mop completely in the bucket! P.D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiG Lady Posted March 10, 2003 Share Posted March 10, 2003 It seems if too many of the activities in a staging are NOT related to marksmanship, then it's no longer a shooting match but a humiliating TV game show. Fish in a bucket.... come ON! That's not shooting!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38supPat Posted March 10, 2003 Share Posted March 10, 2003 Missed a match once (fortunatly) at a local indoor range heard later, Stage required you to carry a bucket of water to the start box, then draw...no big deal. However RO ruled that you couldn't spill the water on the way and if you did you would be DQ'd for creating an unsafe condition on the range. And yes there were DQ's that night, and nobody argued or fought them. I guess what I am saying is wrong is wrong. It doesn't matter how hard you work or what credit you think you deserve for setting up. Its not an excuse for makng up poor stages, or making poor rulings to cover poor stages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaughn leayme Posted March 10, 2003 Share Posted March 10, 2003 It is if you can shoot the fish in the bucket Keep it simple, sort of true to life and get on with the shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Dunlop Posted March 10, 2003 Share Posted March 10, 2003 Almost forgot, that match with the fish, it had a suprise stage, you know, no walk throughs, just a round count. It was won by the stage designer, second was the stage RO and lucky I was third! P.D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted March 10, 2003 Share Posted March 10, 2003 The purpose of non-typical stage directions should be directed toward compelling the shooter to start out in a awkward or off-balance position -- not to create an audition for "reality" television. Instead of focusing only on goofy starting positions/procedures, people need to think out of the box and think about creating non-standard shooting situations. i.e. Weak hand around an awkward barricade, standing on very irregular, sloped surfaces, etc. That said, throwing a little variety and non-shooting fun into a match isn't all bad. It breaks up the routine - which is a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufus The Bum Posted March 10, 2003 Share Posted March 10, 2003 Maybe the lesson learned should be "If your unhappy with the stages at your club, show up early to rectify the problem" Don't whine about it, do something about it. Your taking this sport way too serious, lighten up a little folks. People who whine about stages don't get much sympathy in my book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted March 10, 2003 Share Posted March 10, 2003 Sorry Rufus, sometimes showing up early doesn't fix the problem. If the MD does something stupid that they insist on keeping (like crawl under a 4x8 barricade), there's nothing you can do but leave. After a 2-hour drive, that's not appealing either. We do our best, but what then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angus Hobdell Posted March 10, 2003 Author Share Posted March 10, 2003 I know and understand the complexities of course design I ran an IPSC club in the UK for 5 years. I still believe it should not be a non-shooting based problem that will ultimately affect our percentages or indeed match placing. After all it is a SHOOTING sport, not a running, jumping, fishing or mopping sport! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufus The Bum Posted March 10, 2003 Share Posted March 10, 2003 Hi Angus, Just remember that if you have to start off holding a mop, grenade or a pair of dirty underwear, everyone else has to start out doing the same. I don't know about everyone else, but I don't shoot matches to practice, I shoot matches to see how well I've been practicing. I also go to matches to practice the unexpected because we all know, some people can set some really nasty stages that challenge our minds as much as our shooting ability. A stage which might be considered not in accordance with the book is just another way of doing it. I enjoy stage designers who take the initiative and put a twist into things. I don't show up at matches demanding all stages be "In accordance with" At the Nationals YES, stages should be correct, but local matches are just for fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfinney Posted March 10, 2003 Share Posted March 10, 2003 Rufus, you are right on that local matches should be geared toward fun.... and if that means unusual stages, surprise stages, weird props. etc, so be it, yes I have fun with those kind of things. (by the way if you are the stage designer for a "surprise" stage, as Phil stated above, you should NOT shoot it.. kinda gamey isn't it?) I have set up stages, R.O.ed and help run a club on and off over the last 10 years, and disagree that being there to setup gives you carte blanche to set up any type of stage you see fit - you are providing a service, and should give the people what they want, or they WILL go elsewhere. If that means setting up nothing but speedshoots because no one in the club likes to run, so be it. Challenge yourself on your own time, in practice. But at anything higher than a club match, like Sectional, State, or Area matches, and higher, there is no place for "carry the dummy through the course of fire, pace him in the chair half way through, if he falls from the chair you are penalized for each shot with the dummy in contact with the ground" or buckets of fish, or hand grenades, or any of the other insane "creativity". As a matter of fact, IMHO any major match should be 100% freestyle, NO classifiers or Virginia count (WEAK major match if all they can come up with is a classifier!). Good course design should allow competitors to shoot a course as they see fit, not dictate that you must do this stage "just so" or lose the match. (Edited by shooter40 at 12:11 pm on Mar. 10, 2003) (Edited by shooter40 at 12:13 pm on Mar. 10, 2003) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Beverley Posted March 10, 2003 Share Posted March 10, 2003 Hi Angus Long time no speak! I guess your post means no more Thornlands style scramble nets, rope bridges, water falls or swimming contests in the stream, particularly in the winter. That's a relief! Long since gone now anyway. I was young then and now I'm much older, heavier and much more weary. But I'm still pulling a trigger (just shot the SG Shield Hardy match this weekend just gone) Good to know you're still out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angus Hobdell Posted March 10, 2003 Author Share Posted March 10, 2003 Great to hear from you Neil. Yes I know what you mean. That was a long time ago and I think a completly differnt style of shooting, more like combat. I think we all knew how physical that stuff was going to be and of course we trained accordingly. I know i did, my usual was to run from the lower range to the club house with all kit. Don't think I could do that right now ;-( BUT the difference is We KNEW that was what was required. I suppose what i am saying is that the rant is just that a rant. No one is supposed to take it to heart. It's not going to change the world or anything in it. BTW Neil a little bird said you are going to shoot in Italy? i may see you there. I am firmly enscosed in PHX now where the UK bull firearms laws do not apply, thank god. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDean Posted March 10, 2003 Share Posted March 10, 2003 Thanks for saying that Angus, I've thought about it many times! We should be comparing shooting skills.....meaning what can be done with a firearm in hand, not climbing ladders and getting out of slippery bathtubs in the rain! I'll go a step further and say I hate stages that intentionally try to mess with the shooters mind. Example: Baricade w/ 6 targets available. Procedure: String 1, Engage all 6 targets from either side of barricade with 2 rds each. String 2, Engage all 6 from either side of barricade then mand. reload and engage all 6 from opposite side with 1 rd each. On string 2, they try to sucker you into either double-tapping a target....or completely forgetting the last shots around the opposite side (since I already engaged the targets, my mind stopped thinking about them). Just give us 10 stages of straight foward, no-nonsense design and we'll determine who the best shooter is. Ok, I've whined enough....I feel better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted March 11, 2003 Share Posted March 11, 2003 Steve, "I think SOMETIMES, stage designers lose their way." Perfect. Angus, Yes, the Hate forum is JUST FOR RANTING. So rant away. If anyone feels they must debate your rant, that's their problem. And nice to see you on the board. be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now