What do you think of the new IPSC Shotgun Open rules?

[gose]

What is the current capacity restriction, if any, for USPSA SG Open Division?

10+1 for now. Very likely to change with the next rulebook. We're trying to move forward, not backwards.

[fritzthemoose]

Send in a Form 6 NIA to the ATF (doesnt even cost anything), wait a few weeks, get the form back.

Lock up your gun in a hard case, or separate in two cases, depending on airline.

Show customs your gun and papers.

Enter the US.

If nervous about state laws, keep the gun in your locked case until you get to a range.

In my experience, traveling to the US with guns is way easier and hassle-free than traveling around, or entering Europe, with guns. (I lived and competed in Europe for quite a few years before moving to the US)

Dont know about getting in the EU as a non EU citizen but travelling in the EU is quite easy at least for EU citizens. You only nedd an EU Firearms pass which will be issued to any legal gun owner. With it you can travel to any EU country without even having ot declare the weapon. At least for sporting events. Dont know about hunting as I dont hunt.

The 6 NIA is it at least in theory. But the problems are other ones. First you have to know the gun laws of all the states you are going to. As far as I know also get a permit from each state. Unfortunately it is frequantly not possible to go directly to the state you want to go in the end. Then you have to make sure to confirm with all of them. Then you have to plan your route in order to avoid school zones for example. How should one know where a school zone is or not or in which state this is an issue or not. Meaning you are only really save on an interstate. Also have to be sure that no part of your gun is on the US amunition list and by now lots is. Then you are not allowed to take magazines with more than 10 rounds which makes it impossible for any IPSC event unless you buy mags just for the trip. Also what sense does it make to compete with a 10 rounder against long sticks unless again you borrow some which I dont know would be legal or not. You are defenitely not allowed to buy some. With SG its a 5 shot mag limit.

Minimum barrel lenght is 16 inch wich excludes any M4 for example. Overall lenght minimum 26 inches. Not sure how folding stocks or retractable stocks work.

Leaving is another thing as basically each and every part of your gun is ITAR. So you will have to prove that each and every part was already on the gun when entering. Of course if you come across a reasonable officer its OK if you have a stickler he can make your life a living hell.

Then you have to plan your trip with plenty of time in between changes as you have to get your luggage through customs the first time you enter the US. In the EU you have to get your luggage through customs in your destination county. Can you imagine your first stop is Chicago like it is very likely? You have to get your gun through customs there meaning entering IL with a gun. We all know how easy that is So you better plan several hours or better a day or two in between any connecting flight. And I would not be surprised if there are much more things to be aware of. And I am not even talking airline regulations yet.

Edited October 6, 2011 by ima45dv8

[Chuck Anderson]

Wow, there are so many inaccurate statements in the above statement I really don't know where to begin. I also think we are dramatically off track from the IPSC Shotgun Open rules that this thread is supposed to be about. It is extremely unlikely the USPSA will adopt the IPSC Shotgun rules (basically about the same odds as IPSC adopting USPSA rules for all Divisions). I also doubt there will be an IPSC Shotgun match held in the US. The Pan Am happened and maybe the group behind it will try again. I doubt it, but it could happen. In that case I guess it might be relevant to talk about US firearms laws...maybe. In the meantime to answer the question of what I think of the IPSC SG rules as updated this week. Not much. I see nothing that will improve the sport of shotgun shooting, and several things that might hurt it. I know nothing that was implemented by IPSC will be proposed for USPSA by the Area 1 Director. Can't speak for anyone else on the BOD.

[GentlemanJim]

As far as I know, USPSA would like to grow the multigun field

Putting VERY bad rules in place will not accomplish that.

And what the heck is a mini rifle anyway?

Jim

[fritzthemoose]

Wow, there are so many inaccurate statements in the above statement I really don't know where to begin. I also think we are dramatically off track from the IPSC Shotgun Open rules that this thread is supposed to be about. It is extremely unlikely the USPSA will adopt the IPSC Shotgun rules (basically about the same odds as IPSC adopting USPSA rules for all Divisions). I also doubt there will be an IPSC Shotgun match held in the US. The Pan Am happened and maybe the group behind it will try again. I doubt it, but it could happen. In that case I guess it might be relevant to talk about US firearms laws...maybe. In the meantime to answer the question of what I think of the IPSC SG rules as updated this week. Not much. I see nothing that will improve the sport of shotgun shooting, and several things that might hurt it. I know nothing that was implemented by IPSC will be proposed for USPSA by the Area 1 Director. Can't speak for anyone else on the BOD.

If you mean my post I do hope that you are right. However, thats the information I got from the ATF when I asked some time ago with regards to going to a match in the US. Basically I shelved the idea after that. Lots of the information is even stated on the ATF form and on their webpage.

[fritzthemoose]

In the meantime to answer the question of what I think of the IPSC SG rules as updated this week. Not much. I see nothing that will improve the sport of shotgun shooting, and several things that might hurt it. I know nothing that was implemented by IPSC will be proposed for USPSA by the Area 1 Director. Can't speak for anyone else on the BOD.

While it does not affect me personally due to the fact that I have not invested in trums, long stick mags and so on yet I also dont like the idea of restricting an Open division or keeping a type of gun artificially competative. We did not do it when the 9 Major or 38 SA replaced the 45 as main Major round or when the 2011 replaced the 1911 as main platform or when reddots replaced iron sights. So why do it now with SG?

If it would be an audience sport I would understand a push to make it more interesting or lets say equal for the paying spectator like lets say NASCAR rules or the salary cap in some other sports. But as audience is not a factor I dont know.

On the other hand it does affect US shooters too at least the top ones. SG WS will be in Hungary next year so I dont think that US shooters will be able to start with 30 round trums and chest rigs while the rest of the world will have 10+1 tops on waist level just because they are USPSA.

[Flexmoney]

If you don't want folks to hang a bunch of goofy stuff off of their Open guns, then address that in stage design. Design the course of fire so that it is not "practical" to have that stuff on there. And, if it proves to actually be practical...well that would be a good thing to know!

[3-Gun Sweden]

If you don't want folks to hang a bunch of goofy stuff off of their Open guns, then address that in stage design.

Except that would very rarely happen. But it works in rifle apparently.

[Sako92S]

As far as the Shotgun proposals go, I don't know how the US RD voted. I'm pretty sure it was no, and no on several other proposed rule changes. Since IPSC doesn't record who votes for what I won't know for sure though.

M. Voigt voted against all stupid motions including SG rule changes like our RD. All the big SG regions voted against those motions but that doesn't matter because every voting region has 1 vote.

[West Texas Granny]

Wow, there are so many inaccurate statements in the above statement I really don't know where to begin. I also think we are dramatically off track from the IPSC Shotgun Open rules that this thread is supposed to be about. It is extremely unlikely the USPSA will adopt the IPSC Shotgun rules (basically about the same odds as IPSC adopting USPSA rules for all Divisions). I also doubt there will be an IPSC Shotgun match held in the US. The Pan Am happened and maybe the group behind it will try again. I doubt it, but it could happen. In that case I guess it might be relevant to talk about US firearms laws...maybe. In the meantime to answer the question of what I think of the IPSC SG rules as updated this week. Not much. I see nothing that will improve the sport of shotgun shooting, and several things that might hurt it. I know nothing that was implemented by IPSC will be proposed for USPSA by the Area 1 Director. Can't speak for anyone else on the BOD.

Entities under the same umbrella naturally seek to homogenize their rule structure to make transition between each entity a seamless transition. So to state there is no chance that USPSA will adopt IPSC rules or IPSC will adopt USPSA rules flies in the face of normal corporate evolution. Over time the rules will be the same in USPSA and IPSC for the following reason. It will be best for members of each organization as it allows members to compete in each organizations events without placing undue requirements on the members and the organization. No it won't happen soon or in 5 years but it will happen.

[Flexmoney]

Right, and eventually...pigs WILL fly !!! It's just evolution.

[a.roberts]

Right, and eventually...pigs WILL fly !!! It's just evolution.

Hot wings and bacon in one convenient package.

I can't wait!

[Chuck Anderson]

Wow, there are so many inaccurate statements in the above statement I really don't know where to begin. I also think we are dramatically off track from the IPSC Shotgun Open rules that this thread is supposed to be about. It is extremely unlikely the USPSA will adopt the IPSC Shotgun rules (basically about the same odds as IPSC adopting USPSA rules for all Divisions). I also doubt there will be an IPSC Shotgun match held in the US. The Pan Am happened and maybe the group behind it will try again. I doubt it, but it could happen. In that case I guess it might be relevant to talk about US firearms laws...maybe. In the meantime to answer the question of what I think of the IPSC SG rules as updated this week. Not much. I see nothing that will improve the sport of shotgun shooting, and several things that might hurt it. I know nothing that was implemented by IPSC will be proposed for USPSA by the Area 1 Director. Can't speak for anyone else on the BOD.

Entities under the same umbrella naturally seek to homogenize their rule structure to make transition between each entity a seamless transition. So to state there is no chance that USPSA will adopt IPSC rules or IPSC will adopt USPSA rules flies in the face of normal corporate evolution. Over time the rules will be the same in USPSA and IPSC for the following reason. It will be best for members of each organization as it allows members to compete in each organizations events without placing undue requirements on the members and the organization. No it won't happen soon or in 5 years but it will happen.

That might be true, except when one of those entities, has significantly more people involved than the remaining whole. When that entity has very different ideas, and beliefs about the way the parent organization should be run and a membership that as a whole, does not want IPSC rules in USPSA. USPSA has been consistently moving further away from IPSC for the last several years. The latest changes just highlight how far apart we've become. The only way USPSA and IPSC rules are going to be the same is if USPSA absorbs IPSC and we swap to USPSA rules, not the other way around. And for the foil hat crew, I'm not saying this is coming, on the horizon, been talked about, been thought about or anything else. Just the only way it's happening. Yes it would be nice to allow USPSA members to compete without change in IPSC, however I think the vast majority (and I mean every single person I've talked to with the exception of Frank Thompson, and then some) would rather use USPSA rules, than IPSC. Even if it means changing for an occasional match shot under IPSC rules.

[Thomas H]

Entities under the same umbrella naturally seek to homogenize their rule structure to make transition between each entity a seamless transition. So to state there is no chance that USPSA will adopt IPSC rules or IPSC will adopt USPSA rules flies in the face of normal corporate evolution. Over time the rules will be the same in USPSA and IPSC for the following reason. It will be best for members of each organization as it allows members to compete in each organizations events without placing undue requirements on the members and the organization. No it won't happen soon or in 5 years but it will happen.

True as long as you completely ignore the changes that USPSA has made in their rule structure over time. (You know, the ones that have taken USPSA farther and farther from IPSC as time has passed.)

[Jim Norman]

How many USPSA members ever compete internationally? Keep in mind that Europe fits in the US. We don't need to travel the world to shoot. Heck most or at least many of us can't even shoot all the matches in driving distance on a given weekend. Here we have at least one USPSA match every week often two or more on the same day at opposite ends of the 'how far I'll drive for a club match distance'

We really don't need IPSC and as Chuck indicated we are likely the lions share of the world bodies membership even though we only get one vote.

[Flexmoney]

How many USPSA members ever compete internationally? Keep in mind that Europe fits in the US. We don't need to travel the world to shoot. Heck most or at least many of us can't even shoot all the matches in driving distance on a given weekend. Here we have at least one USPSA match every week often two or more on the same day at opposite ends of the 'how far I'll drive for a club match distance'

We really don't need IPSC and as Chuck indicated we are likely the lions share of the world bodies membership even though we only get one vote.

... and Steel Challenge...and IDPA...and NRA Action Pistol/Bianchi...and bowling pins...and GSSF...and Bullseye...and on and on and on... (then there is rifle, shotgun, archery, blackpowder....sniper matches, HELL YEAH!)

I made a point on another forum once that "we" don't need IPSC...nor USPSA, for that matter... The point of that being that the organizations need to remain viable to the shooters. (as we already see in Multi-gun here in the States)

[GeorgeInNePa]

I think open should be open.

This.

[GeorgeInNePa]

Wow, there are so many inaccurate statements in the above statement I really don't know where to begin. I also think we are dramatically off track from the IPSC Shotgun Open rules that this thread is supposed to be about. It is extremely unlikely the USPSA will adopt the IPSC Shotgun rules (basically about the same odds as IPSC adopting USPSA rules for all Divisions). I also doubt there will be an IPSC Shotgun match held in the US. The Pan Am happened and maybe the group behind it will try again. I doubt it, but it could happen. In that case I guess it might be relevant to talk about US firearms laws...maybe. In the meantime to answer the question of what I think of the IPSC SG rules as updated this week. Not much. I see nothing that will improve the sport of shotgun shooting, and several things that might hurt it. I know nothing that was implemented by IPSC will be proposed for USPSA by the Area 1 Director. Can't speak for anyone else on the BOD.

Entities under the same umbrella naturally seek to homogenize their rule structure to make transition between each entity a seamless transition. So to state there is no chance that USPSA will adopt IPSC rules or IPSC will adopt USPSA rules flies in the face of normal corporate evolution. Over time the rules will be the same in USPSA and IPSC for the following reason. It will be best for members of each organization as it allows members to compete in each organizations events without placing undue requirements on the members and the organization. No it won't happen soon or in 5 years but it will happen.

Open your USPSA rulebook.

See all those US exceptions? There are more now then there were 20 years ago.

The split is wider, not narrower.

[ima45dv8]

Wow, there are so many inaccurate statements in the above statement I really don't know where to begin. I also think we are dramatically off track from the IPSC Shotgun Open rules that this thread is supposed to be about. It is extremely unlikely the USPSA will adopt the IPSC Shotgun rules (basically about the same odds as IPSC adopting USPSA rules for all Divisions). I also doubt there will be an IPSC Shotgun match held in the US. The Pan Am happened and maybe the group behind it will try again. I doubt it, but it could happen. In that case I guess it might be relevant to talk about US firearms laws...maybe. In the meantime to answer the question of what I think of the IPSC SG rules as updated this week. Not much. I see nothing that will improve the sport of shotgun shooting, and several things that might hurt it. I know nothing that was implemented by IPSC will be proposed for USPSA by the Area 1 Director. Can't speak for anyone else on the BOD.

Entities under the same umbrella naturally seek to homogenize their rule structure to make transition between each entity a seamless transition. So to state there is no chance that USPSA will adopt IPSC rules or IPSC will adopt USPSA rules flies in the face of normal corporate evolution. Over time the rules will be the same in USPSA and IPSC for the following reason. It will be best for members of each organization as it allows members to compete in each organizations events without placing undue requirements on the members and the organization. No it won't happen soon or in 5 years but it will happen.

Open your USPSA rulebook.

See all those US exceptions? There are more now then there were 20 years ago.

The split is wider, not narrower.

It's just possible you're looking one rulebook behind. There are no more "US Exceptions" in the USPSA rulebook. It's USPSA all the way!

http://www.uspsa.org/rules/2010HandgunRulesProof3web.pdf

We haven't had "US/USPSA Exemptions" for a few years now.

[GeorgeInNePa]

Wow, there are so many inaccurate statements in the above statement I really don't know where to begin. I also think we are dramatically off track from the IPSC Shotgun Open rules that this thread is supposed to be about. It is extremely unlikely the USPSA will adopt the IPSC Shotgun rules (basically about the same odds as IPSC adopting USPSA rules for all Divisions). I also doubt there will be an IPSC Shotgun match held in the US. The Pan Am happened and maybe the group behind it will try again. I doubt it, but it could happen. In that case I guess it might be relevant to talk about US firearms laws...maybe. In the meantime to answer the question of what I think of the IPSC SG rules as updated this week. Not much. I see nothing that will improve the sport of shotgun shooting, and several things that might hurt it. I know nothing that was implemented by IPSC will be proposed for USPSA by the Area 1 Director. Can't speak for anyone else on the BOD.

Entities under the same umbrella naturally seek to homogenize their rule structure to make transition between each entity a seamless transition. So to state there is no chance that USPSA will adopt IPSC rules or IPSC will adopt USPSA rules flies in the face of normal corporate evolution. Over time the rules will be the same in USPSA and IPSC for the following reason. It will be best for members of each organization as it allows members to compete in each organizations events without placing undue requirements on the members and the organization. No it won't happen soon or in 5 years but it will happen.

Open your USPSA rulebook.

See all those US exceptions? There are more now then there were 20 years ago.

The split is wider, not narrower.

It's just possible you're looking one rulebook behind. There are no more "US Exceptions" in the USPSA rulebook. It's USPSA all the way!

http://www.uspsa.org/rules/2010HandgunRulesProof3web.pdf

We haven't had "US/USPSA Exemptions" for a few years now.

Honestly, I haven't looked at the rulebook in a few years.

LOL

I don't even have a clue where the most recent one is.

I was just going from memory...

[ChuckS]

Honestly, I haven't looked at the rulebook in a few years.

LOL

I don't even have a clue where the most recent one is.

I was just going from memory...

Here ya go, George: http://www.uspsa.org/uspsa-rules.php

[ima45dv8]

Honestly, I haven't looked at the rulebook in a few years.

LOL

I don't even have a clue where the most recent one is.

I was just going from memory...

And you posted in the Brian Enos Rules Forum anyway???

:roflol:

(Nice to see you back, George)

[West Texas Granny]

Entities under the same umbrella naturally seek to homogenize their rule structure to make transition between each entity a seamless transition. So to state there is no chance that USPSA will adopt IPSC rules or IPSC will adopt USPSA rules flies in the face of normal corporate evolution. Over time the rules will be the same in USPSA and IPSC for the following reason. It will be best for members of each organization as it allows members to compete in each organizations events without placing undue requirements on the members and the organization. No it won't happen soon or in 5 years but it will happen.

True as long as you completely ignore the changes that USPSA has made in their rule structure over time. (You know, the ones that have taken USPSA farther and farther from IPSC as time has passed.)

Therein lies the rub and motivation to align the rules. Either do it or separate completely. The chaos of the regulations between the two governing bodies are not conducive to it's members or the sport. So what is best for the Sport?

[gose]

Entities under the same umbrella naturally seek to homogenize their rule structure to make transition between each entity a seamless transition. So to state there is no chance that USPSA will adopt IPSC rules or IPSC will adopt USPSA rules flies in the face of normal corporate evolution. Over time the rules will be the same in USPSA and IPSC for the following reason. It will be best for members of each organization as it allows members to compete in each organizations events without placing undue requirements on the members and the organization. No it won't happen soon or in 5 years but it will happen.

True as long as you completely ignore the changes that USPSA has made in their rule structure over time. (You know, the ones that have taken USPSA farther and farther from IPSC as time has passed.)

Therein lies the rub and motivation to align the rules. Either do it or separate completely. The chaos of the regulations between the two governing bodies are not conducive to it's members or the sport. So what is best for the Sport?

It is pretty much all separated already and both sides seem to be happy with it. The differences dont affect too many shooters anyway.

The US has a pretty different situation than most other countries when it comes to political acceptance for the shooting sports and some of the things we do here are perceived by IPSC to be too un-PC.

On the other side of the coin, IPSC is by a lot of US shooters considered to be way too PC, so if USPSA would align their rules with IPSC a lot of shooters would get upset and it would completely kill any long gun/3-gun under the USPSA umbrella.

So no, I dont think they'll ever get any closer and I foresee them drifting even further apart.

If anything, I could see some countries that are closer to the political situation in the US starting to drift away from IPSC as well

[Thomas H]

Entities under the same umbrella naturally seek to homogenize their rule structure to make transition between each entity a seamless transition. So to state there is no chance that USPSA will adopt IPSC rules or IPSC will adopt USPSA rules flies in the face of normal corporate evolution. Over time the rules will be the same in USPSA and IPSC for the following reason. It will be best for members of each organization as it allows members to compete in each organizations events without placing undue requirements on the members and the organization. No it won't happen soon or in 5 years but it will happen.

True as long as you completely ignore the changes that USPSA has made in their rule structure over time. (You know, the ones that have taken USPSA farther and farther from IPSC as time has passed.)

Therein lies the rub and motivation to align the rules. Either do it or separate completely. The chaos of the regulations between the two governing bodies are not conducive to it's members or the sport. So what is best for the Sport?

"Therein lies the rub and motivation to align the rules." --- No, actually, there is the specifics showing you that what is happening bears no resemblance to what you are saying.

"The chaos of the regulations between the two governing bodies are not conducive to it's members or the sport." ---Haven't really seen much in the way of "chaos" as USPSA matches are separate from IPSC matches As such, it isn't as if these rules conflict at any one match.. As many people have pointed out, most people in the US don't bother with IPSC. Some do, however---and those people tend to know the rules, and handle them perfectly well.

Look at how things have changed over time for USPSA, and this trend is very obvious. I'm not really sure why I'm bothering to reply, though, since many people who have more history with USPSA have commented on this, and you are still arguing.

Getting back to the point: there is only a small minority of people within USPSA who are even interested in attempting to bring USPSA and IPSC rules closer together (or more specifically, to align USPSA with IPSC---lots of people think that IPSC should align itself more with USPSA ); people who shoot USPSA have no troubles understanding its rules; people who shoot both IPSC and USPSA have taken the time to familiarize themselves with the rules.

As with any situation, there are exceptions. However, the history of USPSA makes this obvious.