sperman Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 (rather than hi-jack the table start thread, I thought I would start a new one for this.) There were a couple of stages at a match recently where the WSB stated that no ammo could be on the competitor at the start. One competitor missed a mag that was in the middle of his back. He was given a procedural at the end of the stage for not complying with the WSB. I would argue that he should have been given a re-shoot, not a penalty. It is the RO's job to make sure the competitor meets the ready condition before starting the shooter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 That would be my feelings as well, but after an hour of debating that point last night, I'm just not sure anymore. Can one of the range lawyers, with a better handle on the rule book than I, offer their outlook on this topic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 (edited) No different than the shooter starting with his/her hands down rather than above shoulders. The RO made the mistake by starting them,the shooter shouldn't be penalized. Yes I realize the shooter screwed up, but the reason we have the RO is to run the range. In this situation they both failed, but the RO has a different responsibility to enforce the rules and the walk through, including start position. Gary Edited October 3, 2011 by Gary Stevens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Johnson Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 (edited) I would argue that he should have been given a re-shoot, not a penalty. You would be correct. That is a false start. The only remedy under the current rules is a re-shoot. ETA: the rule is 8.2.2 Edited October 3, 2011 by Gary Johnson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave S Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 Besides if the shooter did not use the mag during the stage, what difference did it make? The WSB implied "mags to be used" during the stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remoandiris Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 I never understood the value of starts like this. When a big friggin magnet gets attached to the front of a mag pouch to hold a mag off the table, what is the point? If reloads were limited to directly off the table, that would eliminate the equipment race (magnets). But still, what is the point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted October 4, 2011 Author Share Posted October 4, 2011 Besides if the shooter did not use the mag during the stage, what difference did it make? The WSB implied "mags to be used" during the stage. You're thinking of the other thread. This stage the WSB said "All mags on barrels. No mags on shooter." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted October 4, 2011 Author Share Posted October 4, 2011 I never understood the value of starts like this. When a big friggin magnet gets attached to the front of a mag pouch to hold a mag off the table, what is the point? If reloads were limited to directly off the table, that would eliminate the equipment race (magnets). But still, what is the point? Magnets may work for Limited and Open shooters, but it is a completely different challenge for other divisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remoandiris Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 I never understood the value of starts like this. When a big friggin magnet gets attached to the front of a mag pouch to hold a mag off the table, what is the point? If reloads were limited to directly off the table, that would eliminate the equipment race (magnets). But still, what is the point? Magnets may work for Limited and Open shooters, but it is a completely different challenge for other divisions. But what is the point to it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztecdriver Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 I never understood the value of starts like this. When a big friggin magnet gets attached to the front of a mag pouch to hold a mag off the table, what is the point? If reloads were limited to directly off the table, that would eliminate the equipment race (magnets). But still, what is the point? Magnets may work for Limited and Open shooters, but it is a completely different challenge for other divisions. But what is the point to it? A little change and variety. I find it amazing to run or watch a few squads through a full table stage. People will still go to their belt, then look down, then go "oh, duh" and grab the mag from the table. It's to get out of the norm, and honestly, it's a practical skill. Chances are you aren't walking around at home with 4 mags on your belt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remoandiris Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 I never understood the value of starts like this. When a big friggin magnet gets attached to the front of a mag pouch to hold a mag off the table, what is the point? If reloads were limited to directly off the table, that would eliminate the equipment race (magnets). But still, what is the point? Magnets may work for Limited and Open shooters, but it is a completely different challenge for other divisions. But what is the point to it? Chances are you aren't walking around at home with 4 mags on your belt. I'm also not walking around home with an unloaded gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 Its nothing but simple gun handling skill tests people. If you dont like them, tell the MD. If they keep having them in a match, find a new place to shoot. I personally kinda like unloaded starts....then again, I practice them from time to time too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCReid Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 (edited) I'm also not walking around home with an unloaded gun. So is your gun loaded when you dry fire? Edited October 4, 2011 by JCReid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remoandiris Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 I'm also not walking around home with an unloaded gun. So is your gun loaded when you dry fire? Dry fire? WTH is that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a.roberts Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 I'm also not walking around home with an unloaded gun. So is your gun loaded when you dry fire? Technically speaking, that wouldn't exactly be dryfire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MGMorden Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 Its nothing but simple gun handling skill tests people. If you dont like them, tell the MD. If they keep having them in a match, find a new place to shoot.I personally kinda like unloaded starts....then again, I practice them from time to time too. A local club this weekend recently had one of these in combination with another thing that scares off shooters - all mags on the table on a stage with a Texas star. When I saw that I almost wished I'd ran Limited-Minor instead of Production . All in all though I think people just need to lighten up on disliking things that are difficult. All mags on table might not simulate anything useful other than starting with all your mags not on your belt, but it's a new curve to deal with, and everyone's starting the same way so why not just enjoy it and see how each person tackles the problem. I was VERY tempted to grab 2 magazines and hold 1 in my off-hand while I shot the star (cupping the bottom of the gun with that hand rather than doing a normal grip), but I was unsure if eliminating one run-back to the table would offset the negative impact it would have on my grip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 Magnets may work for Limited and Open shooters, but it is a completely different challenge for other divisions. Why would it be different for Production, Single Stack and L10? Just having to grab more mags? Needing more magnets? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 (edited) <grin> The magnets may not work too well for those Production shooters using the FN's with the translucent mags. </grin> All kidding aside, though, Chuck makes a good point that every one in their own division has to tackle the problem presented as allowed by their individual division rules. Since (official) USPSA scoring has people only competing within divisions, it seems like a level playing field. I do see your point, that the more limited capacity divisions now have the added challenge of magazine/ammo juggling and management on top of just the pure shooting challenge for a particular stage. Edited October 6, 2011 by Skydiver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted October 6, 2011 Author Share Posted October 6, 2011 Yes, they will need more mags, but Production and SS shooters must store mags in a division compliant location (i.e. behind the hipbone.) These stages don't present too much difficulty for guys that can slap a magazine on the magnet on the front of the belt. Watching guys try and decide how many magazines to grab and what to do with them (mag pouch, back pocket, hold them in weak hand and shoot SHO) can be entertaining. The stage I was referring to in my original post actually required all magazines to be on barrels scattered throughout the stage. Once again, the limited and open guys only need to grab 1 mag, but the low round count guys have to figure how many mags to put at each barrel. IMO, it's just another way to make stages interesting. I'm not a fan of stuffing rounds in magazines on the clock, but having to retrieve mags from somewhere other than your belt is a nice change every once in a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 Mag juggling required for Production, L10, SS, and revolver for this long course, loaded start, but all mags on table start: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 Stages like this dont scare shooters, they just dont like them. This is similar to soem other threads. If the non shoooting portion of the stage takes longer than the shooting it's a sucky stage. This is a shooting sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remoandiris Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 Stages like this dont scare shooters, they just dont like them. This is similar to soem other threads. If the non shoooting portion of the stage takes longer than the shooting it's a sucky stage. This is a shooting sport. +1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPatterson Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 Yes, they will need more mags, but Production and SS shooters must store mags in a division compliant location (i.e. behind the hipbone.) These stages don't present too much difficulty for guys that can slap a magazine on the magnet on the front of the belt. Watching guys try and decide how many magazines to grab and what to do with them (mag pouch, back pocket, hold them in weak hand and shoot SHO) can be entertaining. The stage I was referring to in my original post actually required all magazines to be on barrels scattered throughout the stage. Once again, the limited and open guys only need to grab 1 mag, but the low round count guys have to figure how many mags to put at each barrel. IMO, it's just another way to make stages interesting. I'm not a fan of stuffing rounds in magazines on the clock, but having to retrieve mags from somewhere other than your belt is a nice change every once in a while. Several shooters at the Nationals had mag pouches with magnets behind the hip. Not much help for Glock shooters but i did see a few on SIG, CZ & XD shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 Yes, they will need more mags, but Production and SS shooters must store mags in a division compliant location (i.e. behind the hipbone.) These stages don't present too much difficulty for guys that can slap a magazine on the magnet on the front of the belt. Watching guys try and decide how many magazines to grab and what to do with them (mag pouch, back pocket, hold them in weak hand and shoot SHO) can be entertaining. The stage I was referring to in my original post actually required all magazines to be on barrels scattered throughout the stage. Once again, the limited and open guys only need to grab 1 mag, but the low round count guys have to figure how many mags to put at each barrel. IMO, it's just another way to make stages interesting. I'm not a fan of stuffing rounds in magazines on the clock, but having to retrieve mags from somewhere other than your belt is a nice change every once in a while. Several shooters at the Nationals had mag pouches with magnets behind the hip. Not much help for Glock shooters but i did see a few on SIG, CZ & XD shooters. FWIW Glock mags stick just fine to my DAA magnet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanky Posted October 7, 2011 Share Posted October 7, 2011 Mine too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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