Jake Di Vita Posted May 15, 2004 Share Posted May 15, 2004 I would still shoot, but it would be disappointing. Especially when occasionally you win Production by over 20%, it doesn't really matter any more what the results in Prod say because it isn't a good way to compare yourself against other shooters. In that case, you almost have to look at the combined results to get an idea of your overall shooting ability and match performance when compared to higher skilled shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted May 15, 2004 Share Posted May 15, 2004 While I don't think that I am anywhere near Jake's level, I know that there are many times where the distance between the Divisional Winner and second are great. By posting the combined scores you get to see whether you are really "That Good" or not. Kelly, If you don't want to see, don't look! But do please post. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JT Johnson Posted May 15, 2004 Share Posted May 15, 2004 I wish they'd stop printing combined division scores myself. Hell, an open gun is expensive enough, but do you know much it costs to see a psychiatrist since your regularly getting whooped on by those un-tactical production and lim10 shooters? Josh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Meek Posted May 15, 2004 Share Posted May 15, 2004 Kelly, Wait until you get to shoot a match and watch Rudi Waldinger shoot his revo. And yes there have been times he has beat me with it. Or when he shoots his 8 shot open both are impressive. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted May 15, 2004 Share Posted May 15, 2004 Y'all lay off Kelly.. anybody that's willing to do stats deserves a medal, and I hear he's not bad with a rifle either I guess it's because I started shooting when we were all combined. The new rules say we don't anymore and I get Kelly's point perfectly.. I even agree with it for major matches when there is a reasonable set of competition available in each division and comparisons are meaningful. For a local match, there's not enough shooters to go around and combined is what they demand for the after-match beer-n-pizza sessions. I do remember that the #1 most-shooter-requested feature change of EzWS when it didn't print combined (after the rules changed) was to make it print combined "unofficial" scores. This was also a driver behind time-plus scoring (RIP)-- to make scores directly comparable without flip-flops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted May 16, 2004 Share Posted May 16, 2004 At our club we provide every report that EZWinScore is capable of generating. It takes a few minutes more time to clean it up in Word, for e-mail distribution, and a few cents more in postage, for the extra paper, but the shooters requested it.... ....and I think we're in a service business.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 16, 2004 Share Posted May 16, 2004 I view (and market) each match as five matches in one. But, I want to see those combined results as badly as the next guy. Anybody that isn't posting the combined is making their customers pull out the pen and paper to do some figurin'. Why not save everybody the trouble and click that mouse button a few extra times? (It might take me all of a few minutes, but I am slow on scoring.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted May 16, 2004 Share Posted May 16, 2004 Jim had it right ... if you don't want to see 'em, don't look! Other than getting the results quickly, the most positive comments I've had about doing scores have been about providing the "combined unofficial" scores. People really want to see it and it's a link to the old days when everyone was scored together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharyn Posted May 16, 2004 Share Posted May 16, 2004 oops! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tupperware Posted May 16, 2004 Share Posted May 16, 2004 I will have to rethink my position. I respect that attitude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted May 16, 2004 Share Posted May 16, 2004 I will have to rethink my position. I respect that attitude. Me too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkmccoy Posted May 17, 2004 Share Posted May 17, 2004 Honest guys, I really didn't understand how strongly you felt about this... 1 - To me the combined scores really are meaningless. It doesn't make any sense to me to compare scores among divisions because they are different divisions. The purpose of having divisions is so that shooters with similar equipment (pistol, holster, magazines) are competing against each other and not competing against shooters with very different equipment. If you combine divisions you can't get around the fact that the equipment is different and that the combined scores really don't count for anything. 2 - I enforce all rules (especially the scoring rules since I deal with them every month) with the same vehemence. If a shooter comes to me and says "I really just had one no-shoot on stage 1" I will look at the scoresheet but if there are two no-shoots recorded I will quote 9.7.4. If I get a scoresheet without a time or with insufficient hits and the shooter is still available I insist on a reshoot (9.7.5), etc. Honestly, this is because I think it is the only way to be completely fair to all shooters. I believe that in general we start down a very slippery slope when we begin to ignore the rules we don't like and only enforce the ones we agree with. You are right, printing out combined scores does absolutely no harm, but I am opposed to it in principle (because it appears to me to be contrary to the rules). There seems to be sufficient public demand for the combined scores that this may be a case where in order to serve the customer we need to ignore a rule that does not serve the intended purpose. However, I implore you, if you really want the combined scores please petition your regional director and other members of the BOD to rewrite the rules so that anal retentive scorekeepers can provide the combined scores without feeling that they are being asked to break the rules. Might I suggest: "6.2.2 When multiple Divisions are available in a competition winners will be determined and awards made based only on scores calculated for each Division separately. Scores for all Divisions combined may be calculated and posted for informational purposes only." Cheers, Kelly McCoy San Angelo, TX p.s. I keep score for San Angelo Gun Club (San Angelo, TX) and occasionally for larger matches (e.g. the Texas State Limited). Come on down anyway, I bet you enjoy the match even if you don't get combined scores. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j1b Posted May 17, 2004 Share Posted May 17, 2004 I was going to add something to this as I thought about it more. Several years ago I decided to go shoot Area 4 in limited because I needed a slot. I didn't get my slot. The reason? I'd placed in the top 16 at the match and that had pulled me out of contention for the limited slot. Based on that - I'd assume at some point in time the matches were scored together and not completely seperate. Don't worry all - I did get my slot Hmmm . . . interesting. JB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j1b Posted May 17, 2004 Share Posted May 17, 2004 I like the combined results because it gives me a better guage of performance. Today I shot a match - and did ok - but not great. I had a major jam on one stage and that put a serious hitch in my step. It basically eliminated me from winning the match. I did however still win my division. Were it not for the match total results I might leave thinking everything went great. Despite the jam and a couple of other mis-steps I am the greatest!!!! Clearly that is not the case. Overall results allow me to better assess that. I'll also say something else - and it sounds bad but it is what it is. Clearly some shooters are better than others. Sometimes it takes a GM limited shooter beating an A or M open shooter to give them a gauge of how they will perform at a major match. To many (like me) its all about the challenge and the competition. JB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted May 17, 2004 Share Posted May 17, 2004 I can understand where you're coming from if I was an Open shooter comparing myself against a Limited, L10, or Production shooter. That doesn't make much sense when you bring in the difference of equipment (unless there are fantastic shooters in those other divisions). However when you are shooting in a division in which your equipment puts you at a disadvantage to say an Open shooter (i.e. I'm shooting Production and my buddy Tom is shooting Open) then I really enjoy seeing how well I do against someone who has an equipment advantage. That didn't come out exactly how I wanted it to. Does the point I'm trying to make make any sense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted May 17, 2004 Share Posted May 17, 2004 Actually yes, it did Jake. If you are shooting Production, you might be interested in how you do against Limited. More liekly than the other way around. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted May 17, 2004 Share Posted May 17, 2004 Mr McCoy: Can't ignore rules just because we want to?? Where is 6.1.3 Sorry you can't make it to Mississippi! KURTM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkmccoy Posted May 17, 2004 Share Posted May 17, 2004 Kurt, I knew someone might be sharp enough to catch that...but I am sorry to have gotten caught. Notice that I said "...this may be a case where in order to serve the customer we need to ignore a rule that does not serve the intended purpose..." (which 6.1.3 clearly is). However, some astute obervers have noticed that I may on occasion stir up an argument just because I love to argue. I think (given the choice) I'd select NM over MI, and 6.2.2 over 6.1.3. Cheers, Kelly McCoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted May 17, 2004 Share Posted May 17, 2004 Kelly, As I said earlier, no harm done with "unofficial combined results", but they're not just meaningless because of the different equipment - they're meaningless because (I presume) "unofficial combined results" merely rank all competitors on a single sheet of paper by Match Points earned in separately scored divisions, so the math is all wrong, and there's absolutely no correlation whatsoever between the separate divisional results For example, consider World Shoot XIII. If you just compare hard match points, Rob Leatham in Standard Division earned 2915.3569 Match Points, while Todd Jarrett in Open Division earned 2870.5695 Match Points. If you created "unofficial combined results", it would seem that Robbie with a Standard gun beat Todd with an Open gun, but that's all smoke 'n' mirrors. This is because Robbie earned his match points shooting solely against other Standard Division competitors and, since he won lots of stages, he earned 100% of the Stage Points, lots of times. On the other hand, Todd didn't win as many stages in Open Division, so he earned 100% of the Stage Points less often, and this explains why Todd had fewer Match Points. Bear in mind that Robbie is my hero, and I know he can kick ass even with a potato gun, but not over 35 stages of the World Shoot against his peers in Open Division. BTW, also note that David Sevigny shooting a Glock 17 earned 2861.8622 Match Points, while Jerry Barnhart shooting a Standard (STI?) gun earned 2816.7656 Match Points. Capish? As long as people understand the math, no problem, but I just hope people aren't gambling on the "unofficial combined results". It's a sucker bet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted May 17, 2004 Share Posted May 17, 2004 Vince, In EZWinScore in the U.S., the unofficial combined results, recalculate the competitors scores based on hit factors ---- so if I shot 50% of a Production GM's score for a stage, and he shot 80% of the Open GM's score, then my percentage on the combined drops to 40% ---- this is of course assuming that the above referenced Open GM set the high hit factor for the stage. Basically, EZWinscore ignores divisions for these results and pretends that we're still all shooting heads up.... At a big match I never care, because I've usually got at least one GM shooting production; at club matches, when I start shooting 70-80 % because the best production shooter is an A classer, I still want to know how I stack up against Masters and GMs, even if they're shooting limited. That's not even considering the one match where I was first and last place winner in Production; I felt lonely and really needed the validation of knowing that I was ahead of at least a few Limited or L10 shooters.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkmccoy Posted May 17, 2004 Share Posted May 17, 2004 Actually Vince, if you tell it to figure combined scores WinEZScore recalculates match points and recalculates the stage winners. That's why standings can change among shooters who shot the same division (since stage points can change when the person who factored a given stage might change). The results are still meaningless since shooters who shot different divisions used different equipment and did not compete against one another. I am beginning to consider relenting since so many people so violently want to see results that have no meaning. I don't know what they think those results will tell them. But I'm not sure that preventing them from seeing those results is particularly useful (although it is contrary to our current rulebook). I firmly believe that if you want to compete against someone you should declare the same division (and use appropriate equipment). Someday I'll tell you all the story about the month I talked the whole club into shooting Production division to prove to a couple of obnoxious and unhelpful shooters (one of whom always won Production because they were the only two shooting that division) that they really don't shoot very well. Cheers, Kelly McCoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted May 17, 2004 Share Posted May 17, 2004 Someday I'll tell you all the story about the month I talked the whole club into shooting Production division to prove to a couple of obnoxious and unhelpful shooters (one of whom always won Production because they were the only two shooting that division) that they really don't shoot very well. And that's precisely why I like seeing the overall results ---- cause they tell me how far I still have to climb on most stages.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted May 17, 2004 Share Posted May 17, 2004 Kelly, Feel free to tell us the story --- sounds like it ought to be entertaining... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkmccoy Posted May 17, 2004 Share Posted May 17, 2004 OK, This is seriously OT and I won't be offended it it is moderated out, but it may be instructive regarding "combined scores" and it might also be amusing...I'll admit the story is a bit long.... There are a couple of regular shooters at our club who NEVER help at all! They never help set up. They never help tear down. They never paste a target or set up a piece of steel. They come to all of the matches but don't help a bit. They always shoot Production and are frequently the only two shooters in that division. We offer a discount for second family members ($15 for first family member, $10 for second family member) and we issue an $8.00 coupon for match winners. So, between them they regularly pay only $17.00 for two match entries (usually $15 each) and never help at all. To make the situation worse (or more unpleasant) they are terrible shooters. I do not (ever) belittle shooters who are honestly trying to score well, but these two absolutely refuse to accept any sort of advice. They show no sign whatsoever of trying to improve their scores. They are lax about safety rules (I DQ'd one of them last month for breaking the 180). One of them actually fancies himself a firearms instructor and takes money from people to teach them self-defense skills. Don't misunderstand, these are nice people, they just don't understand. Combined scores (calculated with a pencil and paper of course) didn't have any effect because they just pointed out that other people were using different equipment. I thought it might be instructive for them to have a little real competition in Production. Heck, I went out and bought a pistol to provide some competition (I'm just a B Limited shooter). OK, truth be known I traded a worn-out .45 Witness for a cherry (and really cute) TZ-75 in 9mm (can't go back to that pawn shop until they have forgotten my face). Then I started practicing with Production equipment. My friends say that that wasn't mean of me. They do say that it was mean to convince everyone else to shoot production. I will point out that although they thought it was mean of me, they all shot Production too. In January we had 12 out of 18 shooters in Production Division (instead of the usual 2 or 3). We had a blast. It was a fun match and entirely Production friendly. We had one serious Production shooter (he won) who commented on how fun it was to have everyone shooting production. Did it have any effect? I don't think so. The offenders are still doing much the same. I don't think that they noticed that they finished 9th and 11th out of 12 (we had some new shooters that month). But it was amusing to me. Cheers, Kelly McCoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Posted May 17, 2004 Share Posted May 17, 2004 Wait until you get to shoot a match and watch Rudi Waldinger shoot his revo I spent many a Saturday with Rudi when he was on my RO squad (our local club has us rotate responsibility for running the Saturday IPSC practice sessions). I know what he can do with a revolver and it's almost, maybe even Miculek like I love to look at combined scores (I just really wanna know how many Production shooters did better than I did in Open), but they are best used to wrap unused trophies, plaques and belt buckles in. But I do love looking at them and will always print a set along with the stages and divisions. It gives me something to read in the clubhouse bar afterwards when everyone else is pawing the other ones -- Regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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