texasag93 Posted May 14, 2004 Share Posted May 14, 2004 If this should be posted somewhere else please move accordingly. I was wondering how in the scoring of a large match that I finished 35th and a good friend of mine finished 34th in limited, and in the overall I jumped ahead of him????????? We had this happen in a local match also where two competitors in limited flip flopped when the overalls were posted. How can this happen? If you beat someone in limited or open or whatever division... you still beat them in the overall also...right? Is this a software issue with WinScore or something I just don't get about scoring? TXAG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted May 14, 2004 Share Posted May 14, 2004 Nope. The stage winner in each division gets all the points for that stage. In "Overall / Unofficial" results, only the top shooter gets all the stage points. How does this matter? Say you and Joe are shooting Limited on a 100 point stage and you shoot it clean in 10 seconds. You have a 10 HF. Joe shoots it clean in 20 seconds. He has a 5 HF. Say Lee the new Open GM shoots it in 5 seconds. He has a 20 HF. To keep things simple, you three are the only ones at this match. In "combined" scoring, Lee gets 100 stage points (he won the stage, he gets 100% of the points), you get 50 points (50% of Lee's HF), and Joe gets 25 stage points (25% of Lee's HF) If, on all the other stages combined, you were 30 points behind Joe, he would be above you in the final standings (you gained 25 on him, but that doesn't cover your 30 point deficit), so Joe beats you by 5 points in the combined standings. But.. in "proper" scoring, since you won the stage in Limited, you get 100 stage points (you won the stage, you get all the points) and Joe gets 50 points (50% of your HF). Now you put 50 points on Joe and come out 20 points ahead in the Limited standings. The 'flip-flop' is a match directors nightmare when stats does awards by looking at a combined-overall sheet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRT Driver Posted May 14, 2004 Share Posted May 14, 2004 We had that happen at a local match when posting combined classes. If the percentages/match points are close they can flip flop depending on which shooter in which division won a stage in the overalls. If I remember, the two that flipped were within a couple match points and when the combined scores were run, the gap on one stage made a difference to flip flop them. USPSA says this is why the combined divisions results say "not official results". We post them as a courtesy to the shooters so they can see how they did against their buddies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Dimaculangan Posted May 14, 2004 Share Posted May 14, 2004 i don't think i've ever seen lee and 20 hf in the same sentence unless there was a "can't hit a" in between it but yeah that whole flip flop things happen - i understand why - but could never really explain it to someone else without me getting lost in my own words Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkmccoy Posted May 14, 2004 Share Posted May 14, 2004 6.2.2 ...each Division shall be scored separately and independently. Also, 6.2.5 I know that WinEZScore allows you to calculate "combined" results but it is against the rules. Do not do it. If shooters want to know how they scored against someone in another division they are welcome to use the hit factors and a calculator to work out the score. If Joe Blow wants to shoot against John Smith he is welcome declare the same division as John Smith. Otherwise he is shooting in a different match. The standings can change within a division if the match is scored "all divisions combined" because the individual who factors any stage may be different. Don't score "all divisions combined" it doesn't mean anything and it is against the rules!!! Cheers, Kelly McCoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Meek Posted May 14, 2004 Share Posted May 14, 2004 Most clubs print the combined results for informational purposes only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted May 14, 2004 Share Posted May 14, 2004 All the clubs around here post combineds. We put separated results on the web site, but printing separated results for a club match would only waste paper and have everybody asking "Where's the combined?" (which is why I both know the answer and have an example ready to go off the top of my head) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkmccoy Posted May 14, 2004 Share Posted May 14, 2004 No! No! No! 6.2.2!!! If you want to know how you scored against John Doe you must declare the same division as he did. (Or, you are welcome to get out your calculator and compare the hit factors.) It is NOT a convenience for your local shooters. It is an example of using "local" rules that are contradictory to the national rules. There is NO SUCH THING as "combined results" under USPSA rules. Any scorekeeper who prints out those results and presents them to shooters is violating the rules and should be fired. Go ahead, give me the example that shows it isn't against the rules. Uncle Vinnie, Help! Cheers, Kelly McCoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted May 14, 2004 Share Posted May 14, 2004 Any scorekeeper who prints out those results and presents them to shooters is violating the rules and should be fired. Oh, no! I'm going to lose my jobs! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted May 14, 2004 Share Posted May 14, 2004 6.2.2 says "shall be scored separately". It does not say "shall ONLY be scored separately". So there We score, recognize, award and web-post by division, but we print combined. Our revo shooter would be lonely, and nobody wants to be seen with a calculator and pocket-protector at a match. I suppose we could rename them 'HF verification sheets', but there's nothing in the rules about what stats can't print. Stats is free to post lists of shooters by height, weight, power-factor, fashion-sense, quantity of facial hair or any other criteria they see fit. Doesn't mean squat for the match, but that's why it says 'These are NOT official results' right up at the top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted May 14, 2004 Share Posted May 14, 2004 Kelly, You're 100% correct. So-called "combined results" are meaningless trivia. Having said that, provided the "combined results" have no standing (i.e. they're not used for match recognition, awarding of prizes, classifications or team selection criteria), I guess no harm is done, because guys shooting Standard or Limited or Revolver can get a cheap thrill. Personally, I'd rather have a double shot of Jack Daniels and a Cuban cigar, but that's me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Meek Posted May 14, 2004 Share Posted May 14, 2004 Kelly, If the combined are printed for informational purposes only and are not used for awards then where is the harm in letting the competitors see how they performed against their buddies that might have been shooting in another division. Now I know you will say get a calculator and let them figure it out but that is only a part of the picture as the appropriate stage points can only be awarded based upon the HHF for that stage. So while the method of comparision is one that works on an individual stage, for the comparision of overall match you really neeed all of the competitors HFs. The combined results are for bragging purposes. Now if this feature is removed I can almost guarantee that there will be more of an outcry for it to be replaced than there is for it's removal. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texasag93 Posted May 14, 2004 Author Share Posted May 14, 2004 I say delete the option from Winscore that allows printing of "combined" scores. And further more, everyone must turn in their versions of Winscore and obtain the new and improved watered down version. I will keep our club's version and print combined scores to save trees for the future of the children. Oh, thanks for the explanation guys. TXAG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted May 15, 2004 Share Posted May 15, 2004 Here I go again! We do the following at our club. We post as final the Divsion Scores and the Overalls. A lot of people want to know how they finshed "Heads-Up" We post combined scores for the stages. Should anyone ever ask, I can always send the Stages by division, but the amount of posting is awesome. I need to post a toatal of 40 files! that is 7 stages x 5 divisions and the finals PLUS I'd still post the combined so make that 48 Files Oh, And the Sidematch wihch ads at the minimum 1, maybe 3 more. Please leave well enough alone! VInce, if you don't want the combined scores, don't print them, but to many, the combined scores are anything but "Meaningless Trivia" Especially true of a small club, you get 12-15 people out, no combined results, there is no feeling of acomplishment for anyone. Hey, I beat one other guy! Whoopie!! As for getting a "Cheap Thrill" I have been at more than one match where a Limited Guy's Cheap Thrill was to finish High Overall on the combined scores, Jim Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted May 15, 2004 Share Posted May 15, 2004 Kelly, You said: It is NOT a convenience for your local shooters. It is an example of using "local" rules that are contradictory to the national rules. There is NO SUCH THING as "combined results" under USPSA rules. It is not "Local Rules" It is most definately a convenience for local shooters and it is supported by EzWinSCore, although the scores are very visibly marked, UNOFFICAL RESULTS. What is wrong with knowing that as a limitied shooter in A, I beat a coupld M's shooting Open? Or as a Production shooter, I held my own against some Limiteds? Jim Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted May 15, 2004 Share Posted May 15, 2004 My cheap thrill will be shooting Production and winning aggregate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkmccoy Posted May 15, 2004 Share Posted May 15, 2004 OK, OK, OK, According to the rule book there is NO SUCH THING as combined scores. They don't mean anything. They don't count for anything. They are meaningless. 6.2.2 - Each division shall be scored separately and independently. EZWinScore does allow calculation of combined scores and I think it is a serious flaw in the program (it isn't the most serious flaw, but it is a serious flaw nonetheless). The combined scores are meaningless (MEANINGLESS! I'd put it in one syllable words if I could). If you want to shoot against Joe X, then you need to shoot in the same division as Joe X. If you don't want to shoot the same division then you did not compete with Joe X. Is it an example of "local rules"? YES! If you print out "combined results" (although they are meaningless and unofficial) shooters expect it. I do not print combined results and I will not print combined results and I'm sick to death of shooters wanting to know "did I beat Joe X." If you didn't shoot the same division you didn't shoot the same match and the scores are calculated separately. There's another thread recently that shows why those results are not meaningful. Some stages are "Limited friendly" and others have a distinct advantage for Open shooters. The overall standings will change based on who factored which stage. You CAN'T produce useful or meaningful results based on combined scoring. If you and your buddy (who shoots a different division) want to know who won you should use the hit factors for each stage. Yes, the stage points will change based on who won the stage. That doesn't matter. Remember that combined results are UNOFFICIAL and don't mean ANYTHING! Get over it! We have divisions so that people compete against other people using similar equipment. You do NOT compete against people in other divisions. If you want to print out/see "combined" results then I can't stop you. If you come to San Angelo Gun Club you will see only Division results. Cheers, Kelly McCoy p.s. Jake, I think "Aggregate" only refers to the combination of several matches into a tournament (e.g. rifle, shotgun, and pistol matches for a 3-gun tournament). It might be difficult to win the "aggregate" for a 3-gun match in Production since there is no production division for rifle or shotgun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tupperware Posted May 15, 2004 Share Posted May 15, 2004 Kelly, I gather you have strong feelings on this issue! Without getting caught in your semantic trap, if I shot the same stages as my buddies, I shot the same MATCH. Maybe we shot different divisions but after the match while we're shoving down greasy burgers you better believe I want to know my standing against them. The results, while not meaningful to you, are meaningful to me and my buddies. What is the harm in providing this information? John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkmccoy Posted May 15, 2004 Share Posted May 15, 2004 Strong feelings? Heck No! You should hear me when I'm really wound-up about something!!! I do feel strongly about this (I'm sorry Uncle Vinnie "the RuleMeister" didn't make a more definitive statement). I'm not sure how to explain my position without a lot of examples....Everyone's score (within a division) is based on a percentage of the highest hit factor attained (by anyone shooting that division). If you combine divisions the shooter who "factored" (had the highest hit factor on) each stage will likely change. Because the stages are worth different amounts of points the "overall" standing will change based on the scoring method (combined or by-division). The combined scores are meaningless not just because we don't award prizes based on the combined scores, but because they don't really reflect performance on multiple scenarios with similar equipment. Hey, If you want to look at combined scores to see if you beat your buddy who was shooting a different division - go for it. But you will be wrong. If you want to compete against someone in USPSA shooting then you need to compete in the same divsion. Don't you dare ask me for combined results! I'll just quote 6.2.2 and throw you out of the stat shack. Cheers, Kelly McCoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted May 15, 2004 Share Posted May 15, 2004 Kelly, Where do you run matches? I want to know, because I don't want to shoot there. I hope you and Vince get together and find something you like someday, I just hope that you don't have kids! Lighten up! It is A, that is One, as in Singular Match, there are 5 Divisions. We all know that the prizes if any are awarded on a divisonal basis. But like others have said, When eating greasy pizza after the match, we all like to know how we stacked up. Example, we have a GM Production shooter here. In the combined results he often "Wins" So a lot of us like to see even though we shot L-10 or Limited or Open how we did against him. As someone else has said, our small handfull of Revolver shooters like to see that they are not the absolute slowest on all stages. True they don't win stages in combined, but they can compare their times against the Production and L-10 shooters. Another example here of "This hurts no one", but for a personal reason, someone has to agitate to make a change. The Sky may not be falling but there are some large unstabe chunks in it. Jim Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted May 15, 2004 Share Posted May 15, 2004 I meant combined. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Meek Posted May 15, 2004 Share Posted May 15, 2004 Looks like this topic is starting to show reasons to be merged with this one. RO vs Shooter Mindset Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j1b Posted May 15, 2004 Share Posted May 15, 2004 I think there should absolutely be combined results. It is a great way to measure your performance in the match. Kelly, my guess is that when the speed limit is 55 that you drive 54 or 55? If not then admittedly there is a time and place for everything. Ultimately we are all held accountable in a division. But "customer service" would dictate that combined divisions is what many shooters want to see. It ain't hurting anything - I'd let it ride. JB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tupperware Posted May 15, 2004 Share Posted May 15, 2004 Thanks for the support, guys. Jim, Why did you have to mention "greasy pizza"? Now I have to find a pizza joint and practice another post-match activity. Can't have other shooters gaining advantage on me! John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkmccoy Posted May 15, 2004 Share Posted May 15, 2004 I really didn't realize quite how strongly you all feel about the combined results. It is certainly not my intention to set up a "scorekeeper vs. shooter" situation. I hope you all appreciate that I will enforce ALL of the rules regarding scoring just as vehemently. If shooters would honestly choose not to shoot matches at a club because they did not provide combined results, I will have to rethink my position. Personally I don't want to see the combined results. There are enough people beating me in Limited Division, I don't want to see that a bunch of Open shooters also beat me. Cheers, Kelly McCoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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