Cy Soto Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 At a recent Level I match, one of the competitors who had signed up to shoot in Single Stack, was shooting with a light attached to the dustcover of his pistol. Our first stage was the classifier and, after the gentleman that was shooting SS with the light on his gun shot, he was told that, according to the rulebook, he couldn't use such device in Single Stack. Since this was his first stage and the main RO didn't inform him about his faux pas prior to shooting, he was told that he could could remove the light and start the COF over. In a defiant manner, he said that he wasn't going to remove the light because his pistol wouldn't fit his holster without the light. He was told that, if he chose to shoot the rest of the match with that device attached to the dust cover, he would have to be bumped to Open, which didn't make him too happy. Anyway, to shorten the story... The MD was called in to arbitrate the issue and, to everyone's surprise, the MD said that he was not going to move the shooter to Open. The reason he gave is that this was a Level I match and "we can be a little bit more liniment with the rules." I wholeheartedly disagree with his decision and I would like to know, for future reference, if an RO has any recourse to appeal the MD decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 The person to call in is the Range Master. I assume the MD choose to also wear the hat of the RM at this match? (I wish they wouldn't do that.) The call sounds pretty clear. But, maybe not. Was this shooter using his LEO/MIL gear? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 I have had something similar happen,but in a way the RO was just as wrong for arguing with the shooter and doing the "next time" thing. I have had this happen and I put my timer in my bag and never RO'd for the guy again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cy Soto Posted September 10, 2011 Author Share Posted September 10, 2011 Was this shooter using his LEO/MIL gear? I asked him and no, he is not LE/Mil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 (edited) To answer the OP's original question: Yes, you, as the RO (or anyone else for that matter), you can file a Third Party Appeal. See chapter 11.7 in the rule book. Edited September 10, 2011 by Skydiver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 I would certainly lose sleep over this infraction as the light attached to the gun is such an incredible benefit to the shooter..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gixxerjunky Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 Isn't the motto shoot what you have to get started? Was he a new shooter or is this a regular activity? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cy Soto Posted September 10, 2011 Author Share Posted September 10, 2011 I would certainly lose sleep over this infraction as the light attached to the gun is such an incredible benefit to the shooter..... All sarcasm aside; this might or might not be a significant advantage but it is against the division's rules. Isn't the motto shoot what you have to get started? Was he a new shooter or is this a regular activity? This was this shooter's third or fourth match and, I later found out that he had already been told to remove the light at a previous match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glockcomma Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 Isn't their a weight limit in single stack? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cy Soto Posted September 10, 2011 Author Share Posted September 10, 2011 Isn't their a weight limit in single stack? That too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EkuJustice Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 I would say the light could be an advantage. Sure adds non moving weight to the front end of that pistol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 Those damn inconvenient rules again. Pesky things, always getting in the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cy Soto Posted September 10, 2011 Author Share Posted September 10, 2011 To answer the OP's original question: Yes, you, as the RO (or anyone else for that matter), you can file a Third Party Appeal. See chapter 11.7 in the rule book. Correct, but the person I would have been appealing to, had already overturned my decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 (edited) To answer the OP's original question: Yes, you, as the RO (or anyone else for that matter), you can file a Third Party Appeal. See chapter 11.7 in the rule book. Correct, but the person I would have been appealing to, had already overturned my decision. That's the RM who overturned your decision. Rule 11.7.1 that a 3rd party can bring up an appeal. If you don't agree with the RM, 11.1.4 lets you appeal to an Arbitration Committee. The MD is required to form an Arb Committee as soon as possible under rule 11.1.8. Even if the same person is wearing both the MD and RM hat, as MD he is still compelled to put together the Arb Committee. Of course, as the MD at a Level I, he is allowed to choose who is on the panel (11.2.2), but if you're reasonable with your evidence in pointing out the rules, I feel that even a stacked panel will find it hard to deny your appeal without basis on the rules (11.1.9). Edited September 10, 2011 by Skydiver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cy Soto Posted September 10, 2011 Author Share Posted September 10, 2011 That's the RM who overturned your decision. Rule 11.7.1 that a 3rd party can bring up an appeal. If you don't agree with the RM, 11.1.4 lets you appeal to an Arbitration Committee. The MD is required to form an Arb Committee as soon as possible under rule 11.1.8. Ahhh!!!!!!! That's the part I hadn't read. Now I know!! Thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldchar Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 This may sound chicken..... to some of you. Obviously this is a shooter with an issue who needs to go to another sport. And it does by pass the arbritration process which, of course, I would never do. However as the RM and MD, who is also likely doing the scoring, changing the shooters division on Winscore is no big thing. Jim G Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 Also note that the Arb fee can't exceed the match fee... cheap local ARBs! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihatepickles Posted September 10, 2011 Share Posted September 10, 2011 That MD just opened up a can of worms that they'll be lucky to ever close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yargne Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 Its a level 1 match. You are asking the competitor to buy additional equipment(new holster). Who knows if he will continue with the sport. Perhaps a warning would be better served, if he was to enter a level 2 or 3 match he would be placed into open. Just curious has he joined the USPSA? If so then he should be given a fair amount of time(1 week, 1 month, till next match or 2) to purchase a new holster or be placed into open. However if not and is there just starting out....just let him play, have fun and hope he joins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihatepickles Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 Its a level 1 match. You are asking the competitor to buy additional equipment(new holster). Who knows if he will continue with the sport. Perhaps a warning would be better served, if he was to enter a level 2 or 3 match he would be placed into open. Just curious has he joined the USPSA? If so then he should be given a fair amount of time(1 week, 1 month, till next match or 2) to purchase a new holster or be placed into open. However if not and is there just starting out....just let him play, have fun and hope he joins. Read what's here. It's his 3rd or 4th match and has been warned before. If he wants to play, play in Open. Doesn't really sound like the kind of person I'd care about seeing return. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 there is nothing in the rule book that says cheating is ok at level 1, I really dislike this attitude, generally new shooters dont or even know what divisions they are shooting, nothing wrong with putting a brand new shooter in open if that is where his eqipment places him,. The rule book is online and easy to read. The OP probably should contact your section and area director, USPSA is a trademarked name, and you cant hold a match and call it USPSA if it isnt a USPSA match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al503 Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 Read what's here. It's his 3rd or 4th match and has been warned before. If he wants to play, play in Open. Doesn't really sound like the kind of person I'd care about seeing return. +1. Besides his 'the division rules don't apply to me' position, you never know if he considers some of the safety rules N/A. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeremyM Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 OPEN! With the fact he's been warned and have shot 3-4 matches, he has had ample time. If money is an issue, he can skip one match and the money he saves on ammo and match fee, he could buy a cheap holster. If this shooter is allowed to continue to shoot in SSTK with a weighted device on the front of his gun.....I'd show up with a roll of quarters attached to the front of my gun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 A few observations: - To those who think the shooter is compelled to go out and buy new equipment in order to shoot ... Wrong answer. He CAN shoot with the equipment he has - And his equipment dictates he shoots OPEN. - Even if the guy WERE LEO or Mil, his choice of equipment places him in OPEN. There's nothing in the LEO/Mil equipment rules that says you have to place him in any division other than what his equipment allows/dictates. - And, sadly - Assuming the MD was also the RM (Too many folks keep confusing the duties and responsibilities of the two.) - The RM has final authority over sights and divisions (5.1.3.3.) In this case, he's BLATENTLY WRONG, but I fear there is technically no appeal. I would suggest that if this MD/RM continues to operate in this manner, a conversation be had with the Section Coordinator and/or the Area Director. He is doing a disservice to the sport. (JMHO) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 I was shooting my production division beretta in open and was moved to limited after the match and subsequently got the move to B class limited when HQ did the classifier update. The "MD" and then section coordinator accused me of sandbagging. So yes it is pretty chicken poop-ish to move a shooter from one division to another after the match and not have the guts to tell the shooter beforehand. Anywhhhoooo.... Getting back on topic, the shooter in question needs to sell his tacti-cool flashlight and use the money to buy a holster that fits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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