waktasz Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 A friend and I were at a match this weekend, in the last position of a stage, he was leaning out over the fault line and fell out of the box while shooting. I've seen him do this before (although this time he landed on his butt) and was pretty sure he did not set foot outside the line while shooting. Video also confirms this. The RO's call was 1 PE for a foot fault. Originally the ROs conferred and one said he didn't see which foot was out, but based on his position he knew he was out. The shooter discussed it with me and I suggested he ask to call the RM, based on what the RO just said. Shooter did that, and the RO said he did see his right foot out of bounds, and they could call the RM if he still wanted to. At that point he decided it was not worth pursuing further because he would have no chance to win an argument in that case. I'm not trying to throw anyone under the bus, and I know that at least one of the ROs posts here so it's not necessary to say which match it was or who was involved. I'm just wondering if there is any recourse for the shooter in this scenario. I assume the answer to that question is that he could have arbitrated and called his squad-mates as witnesses? What happens if the entire squad has seen the video which shows proof either way, are they able to be witnesses still? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark R Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 Show the video to the RO/RM and ask where he was out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted September 6, 2011 Author Share Posted September 6, 2011 I thought video couldn't be used as evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
want2race Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 As far as I know, video can't be used in arbitration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 Video is not allowed. Fault calls can be another of those tough to make calls. Was the foot down, did he fire a shot? more than one? how many? Was there an advantage gained? It is not easy to be an RO. The first day it isn't too difficult at about squad 30 on day three you have to keep sharp. If you anticipate the shooter you can wind up calling things that didn't happen, if you don't anticipate him, you can be in the wrong place to make the right call. Ideally the ROS9s) and CRO will confer on any questionable call before they inform the shooter. If one is 100% sure and the others didn't see it, that is good enough to make the call, if one saw it and one is sure he didn't then it becomes a question of did everyone really see what they thought they did, what were their relative positions when the incident occurs? Then when it is all said and done, you make the call. if there is a question, the RM is called and he will ask each party separately in order to determine the actual facts. At this point the call is made and unless the shooter wants to arbitrate, it is done. ROs and CROs are not out to ding shooters that don't earn the procedurals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avezorak Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 11.1.5 says no photos or video can be used as evidence. I dont entirely agree with this but it is what it is. As an RO, I try to make the right call and give the shooter the benefit of the doubt as much as possible. As a shooter I try my best to leave no doubt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 11.1.5 says no photos or video can be used as evidence. I dont entirely agree with this but it is what it is. As an RO, I try to make the right call and give the shooter the benefit of the doubt as much as possible. As a shooter I try my best to leave no doubt. There is no such thing as "benefit of the doubt". You either saw it or you didn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avezorak Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 11.1.5 says no photos or video can be used as evidence. I dont entirely agree with this but it is what it is. As an RO, I try to make the right call and give the shooter the benefit of the doubt as much as possible. As a shooter I try my best to leave no doubt. There is no such thing as "benefit of the doubt". You either saw it or you didn't. Thats exactly what I mean. If I cant make a call 100%, I wont make it. I am not going to penalize someone for something I "thought" I saw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colt Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 although this time he landed on his butt Did he shoot after he landed? Brent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 Was called for that at a local match last weekend. I did not think the shot broke, but the RO did. Such is life. Foot faults can be like finger in trigger - looks like it is there but may not be depending on angle, shooters height, RO height, etc. Add in the spectators who all may see something different and you have a tough time as an RO! Competitor should still have asked for the RM to come by. Like a calibration on steel, can't hurt, even though you may know what the outcome will be. Also helps us as RO's to reinforce that we saw what we saw with 100% certainty. Remember, the RM talks with all involved parties and if he has doubts, gets back with the RO to ask him/her if they are absolutely 100% sure, no doubt about it. From that the decision gets made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 (edited) 11.1.5 says no photos or video can be used as evidence. I dont entirely agree with this but it is what it is. As an RO, I try to make the right call and give the shooter the benefit of the doubt as much as possible. As a shooter I try my best to leave no doubt. Playing Devil's Advocate here: That's the last sentence of 11.1.5. The first sentence of 11.1.5 all refers to informing the RM that the shooter wants an Arbitration Committee, and the need to gather evidence for the committee. So does it follow that video evidence can be used prior to appealing to the committee? (eg. Use video as evidence while doing the initial appeal to the RO, CRO, and RM.) Personally, I feel that the generic "photos/video cannot be used as evidence" applies even before arbitration. Edited September 7, 2011 by Skydiver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vluc Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 11.1.5 says no photos or video can be used as evidence. I dont entirely agree with this but it is what it is. As an RO, I try to make the right call and give the shooter the benefit of the doubt as much as possible. As a shooter I try my best to leave no doubt. Playing Devil's Advocate here: That's the last sentence of 11.1.5. The first sentence of 11.1.5 all refers to informing the RM that the shooter wants an Arbitration Committee, and the need to gather evidence for the committee. So does it follow that video evidence can be used prior to appealing to the committee? (eg. Use video as evidence while doing the initial appeal to the RO, CRO, and RM.) Personally, I feel that the generic "photos/video cannot be used as evidence" applies even before arbitration. An RO on my squad at A8 called a DQ on a shooter. Running the Palm, I did not see it because of the shooters position with the gun (trying to clear a jam and reloading). During the subsequent discussion when the RM came to the stage to talk with both the RO and the competitor, comment from the squad about there being video received the response that video is not utilized in these cases. It applies even before arbitration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 11.1.5 Retain Evidence – An appellant is required to inform the Range Master of his wish to present his appeal to the Arbitration Committee and may request that the officials retain any and all relevant documentary or other evidence pending the hearing. Photos, audio and/or video recordings will not be accepted as evidence. There is no instant replay in USPSA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted September 7, 2011 Author Share Posted September 7, 2011 I realize that, thank you. How about this question? What happens if the entire squad has seen the video which shows proof either way, are they able to be witnesses in an arb still? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 I realize that, thank you. How about this question? What happens if the entire squad has seen the video which shows proof either way, are they able to be witnesses in an arb still? There is no rule against it, but if I am the RM putting together an ARB committee, you can bet I'm not going to use anybody that was on the same squad with the shooter filing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 If you don't appeal the call up the line (to the CRO, then to the RM, then to arb)...you are completely out of luck. Often the RM can/will ask the RO just exactly what they saw and how sure of that they were. If they waffle around with..."I think"...or "he musta been out"... It costs nothing to call the RM. Of course, video cannot be used...but, you might be able to let an RO know that you have it on video and ask him/her just how sure of their call they really are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 What happens if the entire squad has seen the video which shows proof either way, are they able to be witnesses in an arb still? Watching a video is not witnessing an event. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 I realize that, thank you. How about this question? What happens if the entire squad has seen the video which shows proof either way, are they able to be witnesses in an arb still? Not if they're basing their testimony on video..... The underlying concept is that it is not possible for untrained laypersons to determine if photo or video offers "proof." I've spend more than a decade getting paid for my skills behind a camera -- and there are any number of things I can't definitively determine from any given video..... Video angle, quality, distance to the shooter, level of zoom, camera shake, not knowing if video and audio are accurately synced, etc. all factor into that.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 I realize that, thank you. How about this question? What happens if the entire squad has seen the video which shows proof either way, are they able to be witnesses in an arb still? There is no rule against it, but if I am the RM putting together an ARB committee, you can bet I'm not going to use anybody that was on the same squad with the shooter filing it. You'd better be the Match Director, not the RM..... MD's put together Arb Committees, since the RM has a horse in the race... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Hefta Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 11.1.5 says no photos or video can be used as evidence. I dont entirely agree with this but it is what it is. As an RO, I try to make the right call and give the shooter the benefit of the doubt as much as possible. As a shooter I try my best to leave no doubt. There is no such thing as "benefit of the doubt". You either saw it or you didn't. Thats exactly what I mean. If I cant make a call 100%, I wont make it. I am not going to penalize someone for something I "thought" I saw. I am on the same page on this issue, I would talk to the shooter after the range is clear about the close call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 I realize that, thank you. How about this question? What happens if the entire squad has seen the video which shows proof either way, are they able to be witnesses in an arb still? There is no rule against it, but if I am the RM putting together an ARB committee, you can bet I'm not going to use anybody that was on the same squad with the shooter filing it. You'd better be the Match Director, not the RM..... MD's put together Arb Committees, since the RM has a horse in the race... I had not finished my first cup of coffee yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted September 7, 2011 Author Share Posted September 7, 2011 If you don't appeal the call up the line (to the CRO, then to the RM, then to arb)...you are completely out of luck. Often the RM can/will ask the RO just exactly what they saw and how sure of that they were. If they waffle around with..."I think"...or "he musta been out"... It costs nothing to call the RM. Of course, video cannot be used...but, you might be able to let an RO know that you have it on video and ask him/her just how sure of their call they really are. I think this answers my original post fully. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 I realize that, thank you. How about this question? What happens if the entire squad has seen the video which shows proof either way, are they able to be witnesses in an arb still? There is no rule against it, but if I am the RM putting together an ARB committee, you can bet I'm not going to use anybody that was on the same squad with the shooter filing it. You'd better be the Match Director, not the RM..... MD's put together Arb Committees, since the RM has a horse in the race... I had not finished my first cup of coffee yet. I figured. I had..... :P ....and on Mark's and Flex's advice, I got really well acquainted with Chapter 11 before RMing the Mid-Atlantic Sectional earlier this year... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPatterson Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 It is probably a good idea for the RO staff to read the whole rule book 2 or 3 time before working a level 2 or 3 match. At local matches I keep hearing "Is the shooter ready" so it appears shooters are not reading the rule book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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