Art Yeo Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 (edited) I thought I prepared myself and the gun well for the state match by doing the following: Tested different ammo, decide on one and stick to it for range practice and for the match Tested all mags at the range and take the good ones to the match clean and lube the pistol thoroughly before the match attended several local matches Well, at the state match, I got bitten pretty badly. My SW1911PC (PC = Performance Center) failed. The piece of metal that sits between the slide-lock and the thumb-safety popped out and disappeared during the match. I did not even know when it happened. Then, the slide started to lock on alternate rds. I had to rack it and get it going. It locked up again soon after that. Note that mag still have rds in there. It deteriorated to a state where it slide-locked on every rd. I stepped aside to the safe area to re-oil it and it did not help much. After 2-3 rds, it went back to locking after every rd. Note that this behavior occurred after only about 70+ rds with a clean pistol to begin with. I usually shoot 150-250 rds at the range per session without oiling and no such problems occurred. I have put slightly over 1,000 rds thru this pistol before this happened. Question: How do you guys prep your gun before a big match so that these things don't happen? What exactly is that missing metal piece (picture attached) used for? I am guessing it is related to thumb-safety since without it, it is not functioning well Edited August 21, 2011 by Art Yeo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blaster113 Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 I think the part you're referring to which flew off is the plunger tube, which is staked onto the frame and contains a spring and two pins which keep tension on the slide stop and thumb safety. If that flew off that should explain the malfunctions. Regarding making sure your gun is ready for a big match, check out this article from Brazos Custom http://www.brazoscustom.com/magart/0311.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Yeo Posted August 21, 2011 Author Share Posted August 21, 2011 Thanks for the part identification and the link for prepping the gun. It's a sad situation, really, after spending so money on the gun, ammo, fees for matches and time to have to meet with such a disaster. Some people suggested a better gun from Ed Brown, Wilson Combat folks. What are you thots? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoshidaex Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 I take two guns with me to every match I go to. Very identical are preferred but if that's not possible, something similar will work. I think the S&W is a good gun. Give them a call to see if they'll make it right for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Yeo Posted August 21, 2011 Author Share Posted August 21, 2011 My fear is that if this plunger tube can pop out now, it may pop out in the future at the worst time again. Is there something that they can do to prevent it from coming out? Incidentally, since this is a generic standard 1911 part, do the rest of the brands share the same issue? How do the Ed Brown, Wilson, STI guys prevent this? I also see that some experts are saying the rear stake of the plunger tube is the one that usually breaks off. Is the plunger tube made of forged steal or just a MIM/cast? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MTSCMike Posted August 21, 2011 Share Posted August 21, 2011 No matter how well you prepare or how well you check your equipment something can still fail during a match. The plunger tube you lost was one of those things. Uless you happened to notice it was loose in a practice session or while cleaning the pistol, there is no way you could have predicted that failure. Carrying a back-up is an expensive proposition but usually the only good insurance for a major match failure. The fact that you continued to attempt the match after a plunger tube loss and the fact that you didn't know what that part was or what it did suggests that you have not become very familiar with your chosen weapon platform. Without being familiar with your pistol's design and features, you will be at a severe handicap when trying to diagnose problems when they occur. I don't mean this as an overt criticism, just a strong suggestion if you want to be a competitive shooter. As an example...as others have mentioned, the plunger tube provides mechanism which keeps the slide stop and the thumb safety in place and functioning. Firing the pistol with this part missing could have caused damage to your firearm or injury to you and the malfunctions you mentioned were absolutely guaranteed. A competitor with functional knowledge of their pistol would have known to stop when that part was lost and either used a back-up or simply not finished the match. There are many good gunsmiths for the 1911 platform and most likely one near you who you could visit and ask for some tutorial assistance. There are also many good books, videos, etc which can show you all there is to know and understand about your pistol's features and functions. If you want to be more than just a casual shooter then you will need more than a casual knowledge of your pistol. Shoot well and be safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Yeo Posted August 21, 2011 Author Share Posted August 21, 2011 (edited) The fact that you continued to attempt the match after a plunger tube loss and the fact that you didn't know what that part was or what it did suggests that you have not become very familiar with your chosen weapon platform. Without being familiar with your pistol's design and features, you will be at a severe handicap when trying to diagnose problems when they occur. I don't mean this as an overt criticism, just a strong suggestion if you want to be a competitive shooter. As an example...as others have mentioned, the plunger tube provides mechanism which keeps the slide stop and the thumb safety in place and functioning. Firing the pistol with this part missing could have caused damage to your firearm or injury to you and the malfunctions you mentioned were absolutely guaranteed. A competitor with functional knowledge of their pistol would have known to stop when that part was lost and either used a back-up or simply not finished the match. You are dead right about this. Yes, I admit I am new to 1911 and I do not have a decade of experience under my belt. However, I am keen on learning. What book(s) or links do you recommend for learning the basics of troubleshooting 1911's when early symptoms appear. On hind sight, I did notice that one of my Meg-Gar mags started to slide-lock with a non-empty mag and also not locking when the mag is actually empty. I have contacted Meg-Gar and sent it back. My initial instinct was that it has something to do with the mag and not the pistol. For all we know, it could well be the early symptoms of the plunger tube looseness or, perhaps, one of the stakes have already broken off. Anyway, I am still licking my wounds running thru the 2nd day of the state competition with another gun which I have not practiced with. Edited August 21, 2011 by Art Yeo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MTSCMike Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 What book(s) or links do you recommend for learning the basics of troubleshooting 1911's when early symptoms appear. On hind sight, I did notice that one of my Meg-Gar mags started to slide-lock with a non-empty mag and also not locking when the mag is actually empty. I have contacted Meg-Gar and sent it back. My initial instinct was that it has something to do with the mag and not the pistol. For all we know, it could well be the early symptoms of the plunger tube looseness or, perhaps, one of the stakes have already broken off. Anyway, I am still licking my wounds running thru the 2nd day of the state competition with another gun which I have not practiced with. Wish I could name a specific source...I have been blessed to have several shooting buddies who are accomplished 1911 smiths and I just did some "monkey see-monkey do" for a bit, modified my factory guns and eventually did several of my own builds from gunsmith parts. Google can point to several 1911 gunsmithing sources and I used to have a Bill Wilson maintenance video that was helpful. Just be hungry for knowledge and dive in. Even if you never intend to do any of your own smithing the info is extremely valuable for troubleshooting problems. 1911's are far and away the premier competition gun but most factory models need a tweak or two. The plunger tube is not usually one of them! The Performance Center should make that right for you. Treat every trip to the range or match as a learning opportunity. That way even a failure, while disappointing, can be a positive learning experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blind bat Posted August 22, 2011 Share Posted August 22, 2011 +1 for bringing a backup gun. I'd feel more comfortable bringing two moderately priced guns to a big match than one expensive gun. I don't think any gun, regardless of name/price is immune to Murphy's law. From what I've seen at matches, S&W seems to make some of more reliable 1911s these days. I'm sure S&W will make it right. Plunger tubes loosening up is a fairly common problem with 1911's. Not 'magazine failure' common but it does happen. Any local 'smith familiar with the 1911 should be able to restake the plunger tube if you don't feel like shipping it back to S&W. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M1911 Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 I always bring a backup to the match with me. It won't be identical to my primary, but if my primary goes down, I'd rather be able to switch to my backup than just go home early. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MGMorden Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 While I don't necessarily think it'll be an ideal match gun, one thing I like about the Ruger SR1911 is that the plunger tube is a machined part of the frame, not staked on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blaster113 Posted August 25, 2011 Share Posted August 25, 2011 Smith and Wesson will take care of the repair, which is a relatively simple one. The plunger tube is a part that Ive seen break on low mileage 1911s. I have spares of just about every single part for my STI Limited and Open squirt guns in my parts kit. One week before Area 1 the stock STI ambi safety on my 2011 broke when I was trying to remove it for a detail strip, so I had to cannibalize the hammer, sear and ambi off my Open STI cause I didnt have a spare ambi on hand and couldnt wait for an order to come in. Thankfully the parts dropped in and functioned fine. Murphy's Law... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Yeo Posted August 25, 2011 Author Share Posted August 25, 2011 (edited) Thanks for the support and suggestions. After much struggle, trying to get in touch with S&W (Murphy is really working hard on me --- CS Dept at S&W was having technical issues with their system for routing incoming phone calls), I managed to send my gun to them. It should arrive tomorrow at their factory. I have also been reading about how little an effort is involved to press the stakes of the plunger tube with a staking tool which Brownell sells. I read of one guy who just dropped by his local pistolsmith and the smith did it in under 15 mins while he waited. Now, in examining the mechanics of staking the tube, it is as simple as pushing a spike (from the staking tool) right into the center of a metal stake (of the plunger tube) and tearing it down into a rivet. It's quite crude, come to think of it. Most rivets I know of will get loose and come off if it is under constant vibration. In general, vibrations will wear off the contact points of most rivets. How's it, then, that many WWII M1911 are still functioning without any plunger tube looseness after all these years? May be I should ask why most plunger stakes last a lifetime while others (like mine) breaks so early in their lifetime? Edited August 25, 2011 by Art Yeo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
392heminut Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 It's not just a simple matter of staking the posts on the tube, you have to hold the tube tight against the side of the frame while doing so and avoid collapsing the tube in the process. I have a pair of pliers that are modified to stake the plunger tube and a steel rod that slips in the tube to support it during the process. In answer to your question about vibration, I always put a drop of red Loctite on each stud before putting the tube on the frame. The Loctite fills the voids and keeps the tube from moving around after it sets up. Back in the days before dovetail front sights the front blades on 1911s were staked on. If you didn't use red Loctite when staking a front blade on you were almost guaranteed that the blade would come off eventually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD45 Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 No matter what sort of cleaning you choose to do to a pistol before a match, you should shoot it before you go. I prefer to shoot 75rds. minimum. It let's you know everything is in place and works. A past world champ once said he shot 200 before a match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blaster113 Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 definitely a good idea to function fire a little before a big match, especially if you do a detail cleaning of the pistol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mildot1 Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 Why is there a diff between a local match and a "big" match??? Your paying a entry fee at both aren't you? You wish to do well at both don't you? Clean the pistol function test it and load your gear. Good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted August 26, 2011 Share Posted August 26, 2011 Ned Christensen makes and extra stout safety plunger. I think it is around here (try a search) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astephenson Posted August 27, 2011 Share Posted August 27, 2011 Why is there a diff between a local match and a "big" match??? Your paying a entry fee at both aren't you? You wish to do well at both don't you? Clean the pistol function test it and load your gear. Good luck Major matches typically involve travel/hotel expenses and a larger match fee. The larger investment makes me be a little more diligent about preparation. I shoot anywhere from 6-10 club matches a month, and if I was preparing my gear for each of them as carefully as I did for a major match I wouldn't have time to work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blaster113 Posted August 27, 2011 Share Posted August 27, 2011 (edited) +1. I maintain my guns and equipment but I take extra steps before I leave for a Level III match. Club matches cost me $5 or $7 for an entry fee, depending if there's a classifier plus only 15-20 minutes of drive time one way and are held at least 3 times a month. A Level III match involves at least $900 airfare (me and the wife), match fees of $125 to $275, match ammo, hotel and rental car, meals and shopping (married to Imelda Marcos). I can deal with a gun issue at a club match; fix it function test it shoot the match the following Sunday. Murphy is alive and well so I address any potential gun problems before a Level III match where I spend close to $2k for everything, not including months of livefire and dryfire practice. Edited August 27, 2011 by blaster113 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DinosaurMikeGolf Posted August 29, 2011 Share Posted August 29, 2011 (edited) Being a retired Soldier, I conduct a PCC (Pre Competiton Check) on the firearm or firearms I will use before every match regardless of local or big. Edited August 30, 2011 by DinosaurMikeGolf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lumpygravy Posted September 1, 2011 Share Posted September 1, 2011 Sounds like the OP is on the way to a repaired plunger tube and there's lot's of good info in the preceding posts. I have nothing further to offer in the way of prep suggestions but maybe a bit of "old guy" perspective. If you play this game long enough, something like this - an important part flying off into oblivion for example - is bound to happen to you sooner or later. You can prep 'til the cows come home and that will only reduce the chances that a failure will occur at an inopportune moment, but never fully eliminate the chances. Do the prep but take the equipment problems that occur in stride. Somedays, it just wasn't meant to be. If it's a big match and you don't have a backup gun, all you can do is try to fix it before the next stage/day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 If you do bring a backup gun, make sure that you've also chrono'ed your rounds through that gun. There's already the stress of having to switch guns, don't add more stress of worrying about whether you'll make your declared power factor or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biloxi23 Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 I agree with what lumpygravy said. Sort of like, "Somedays you're the windshield, somedays you're the bug." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillD Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 Thanks for the support and suggestions. After much struggle, trying to get in touch with S&W (Murphy is really working hard on me --- CS Dept at S&W was having technical issues with their system for routing incoming phone calls), I managed to send my gun to them. It should arrive tomorrow at their factory. I have also been reading about how little an effort is involved to press the stakes of the plunger tube with a staking tool which Brownell sells. I read of one guy who just dropped by his local pistolsmith and the smith did it in under 15 mins while he waited. Now, in examining the mechanics of staking the tube, it is as simple as pushing a spike (from the staking tool) right into the center of a metal stake (of the plunger tube) and tearing it down into a rivet. It's quite crude, come to think of it. Most rivets I know of will get loose and come off if it is under constant vibration. In general, vibrations will wear off the contact points of most rivets. How's it, then, that many WWII M1911 are still functioning without any plunger tube looseness after all these years? May be I should ask why most plunger stakes last a lifetime while others (like mine) breaks so early in their lifetime? Probably the plunger tube wasn't staked properly to begin with or the inside chamfer wasn't done or done well enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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