Powder confusion for lead/moly

[GregJ]

I'm so confused !!! I've been researching this till I'm about ready to lose it I've been using 5.4gr of W231 for lead (MB) and moly (Precision) bullets (200gr SWC in my Kimbers), and while I really like this load (very accurate), I would like to get less fouling. Common feedback seems to be to switch to a slower burning powder. Since I'm currently using W231, this would mean maybe WSL, Clays (Hogdon Universal), or WSF.

Yet, it seems so many folks here use a much faster burning powder than W231 for lead/poly, like N320, Solo 1K, and Titegroup - these seem to be the most common powders.

Edited July 22, 2011 by GregJ

[Torogi]

I wanted to find out too if powder has any factor with this. Smoke is inevitable to cast and moly bullets but is there a powder that don't make it smoke as much?

to OP, i have tried N320, Titegroup, HP-38, W231 and Solo 1000 and they all smoke with CAST bullets.

Well, with same powders and Montana Gold bullets they dont smoke. (i mean there is still smoke but very minimal or just very thin).

[TreblePlink]

If you want the same powder speed as W231, I suggest VV330, but with reasonable care, 320 works well with Precision's coated 200grs. VV is definitely cleaner, but more expensive. I shoot the Precision coated in .40 with 320 and get good results with minimal fouling.

[98006]

WST

[GregJ]

If you want the same powder speed as W231, I suggest VV330, but with reasonable care, 320 works well with Precision's coated 200grs. VV is definitely cleaner, but more expensive. I shoot the Precision coated in .40 with 320 and get good results with minimal fouling.

This is what I dont understand. According to Hogdon's burn rate chart, W231 is #29 and N320 #24 - faster burning than W231, yet it seems to foul less? I may pick some up and see.

[Classic_jon]

If you want the same powder speed as W231, I suggest VV330, but with reasonable care, 320 works well with Precision's coated 200grs. VV is definitely cleaner, but more expensive. I shoot the Precision coated in .40 with 320 and get good results with minimal fouling.

This is what I dont understand. According to Hogdon's burn rate chart, W231 is #29 and N320 #24 - faster burning than W231, yet it seems to foul less? I may pick some up and see.

Burn speed does not always equate to fouling or smoke. Generally the faster powders will smoke a bit more with bare lead or moly than slower ones but, some powders just burn *cleaner* than others no matter what the speed rating on the chart is. Much of this has to do with what their chemical composition is. The Vihtavuori powder lines generally are considered very clean burning and very predictable even on their slower powders. This is not to say that there are not other good powders out there! Just that burn speed does not always = "cleanliness"

On a related note, if you look around at different manufacturers burn speed charts you will notice quite a variance on what powder is listed where. Most powders will be in the same general area of burn speed but may be a couple slots higher or lower. Burn speed charts should be used as a general reference but do not replace good load data from a reloading manual. Just because a powder is listed as "slower" than another similar powder does not mean they both will behave the same on their pressure curves at higher loading points. A good example is "plain Clays" powder. It is a great powder when used correctly, but at higher loads it can build up a dangerous amount of pressure faster than say titegroup, if you do not pay attention.

[Joe4d]

Also has to do with burn temperature, Tightgroup is pretty hot burning, which smokes alot more than other powders with cast and moly. Tightgroup is cheap accurate, light recoiling, and low charge weight an all around great powder for jacketed bullts. What you are seeing is people that match shoot with jacketed and practice/local match with moly and dont want to keep two powder supplies. My main powder is WST as I shoot cast and moly pretty much exclusively. Its fast enough, clean enough, low smoke enough, readily available and competitively priced.

[GregJ]

Thanks to those that suggested WST. I also wanted to thank CocoBolo for recommending his load of 4.7gr of WST with the Precision 200gr bullets. I tried that load today with some SWC and RNF today, and they worked quite well, and the barrel seemed clean of any moly fouling. As soon as I burn up all my W231 moly/lead loads, I will start using WST only for lead/moly.

Cheers guys

[Coach]

Just get some Unique and shoot lead and smoke like a burning tire. It helps keep the flying insects down.

[GregJ]

I tried Unique once. Metered like mud, and was about as clean shooting, and that was the newer version. I'll pass.

[bulm540]

Ramshot competition.

[CocoBolo]

It may not be your powder. Loading and shooting moly takes a bit more skill than jacketed bullets. WST, or just plain Clays is good in 45 with 200gr precision bullets. Make sure you are belling the case enough that you are not shaving the moly, look for shavings around the rim. Don't over crimp it. If your barrel is rough smoth it up with a little flitz.

If you are unsuccessful then I would suggest the BayouBullet, its got a good geen coating of gator snot and you barrel is cleaner after shooting than before and it does not smoke, flies faster than precision at the same charge weight, albiet not as consistent in shape and weight as the precision.

[lawboy]

WST is a great powder for 45acp. However, 4.7gr charge weight under a 200gr bullet seems a bit light for reliable 165pf loads. WST is inversely temperature sensitive and will give slower bullet speeds when the temperature rises. That load is right at 165pf and even a moderate rise in ambient temperature will push you below major power factor, not a good thing at a big match. I use 5.0grs WST in my loads for a bit of safety margin at 175pf. Just a thought. Regards.

[GregJ]

It may not be your powder. Loading and shooting moly takes a bit more skill than jacketed bullets. WST, or just plain Clays is good in 45 with 200gr precision bullets. Make sure you are belling the case enough that you are not shaving the moly, look for shavings around the rim. Don't over crimp it. If your barrel is rough smoth it up with a little flitz.

If you are unsuccessful then I would suggest the BayouBullet, its got a good geen coating of gator snot and you barrel is cleaner after shooting than before and it does not smoke, flies faster than precision at the same charge weight, albiet not as consistent in shape and weight as the precision.

I really think it is the powder at this time. My reloading process is (I believe) not the issue:I ensure there is ample bell/flare, I use seperate taper and crimp dies, I make sure there is not too much crimp so the bullet is not deformed, and there are no molly shavings on the shell plate. I've pulled a few bullets to make sure the molly has not been cut. Also, picking up spent shells using the W231 powder, they are incredibly hot, more so that with WST powder. This seemingly difference in heat I hope is also an indicator.

[noylj]

Is smoke REALLY a problem?

All I have shot in .45 Auto for several years has been Precision's 200gn moly-koted L-SWC. I have never been conscious of any smoke and the barrel, after about 10k rounds in my main gun without cleaning, has no build-up of anything in the barrel (just the standard soot that is always there, no more and no less than after about 20 rounds).

Best powders/loads have been (1) 3.8 or 4.9gn AA2, (2) 5.2-5.4gn 231/HP38, (3) 3.7gn Clays, (4) 3.9-4.1gn Red Dot, (5) 4.8-5.0gn TiteGroup, and 6.7-7.7gn True Blue (rather surprised how good this slow powder is in my guns). WST has only produced about 2" groups at best and not consistently. COL has been 1.270 for all my 1911s.

If you damage the coating (or the plating on those other bullets), you will get leading and poor accuracy.

[19852]

I just had a chance to try out my new load of: 200gr RN Bayou Bullet with Ramshot Competition. Great function, no smoke [that I could see], and very clean. I'll have to chrono next.