Flipping the safety off on a loaded holstered handgun

[Nik Habicht]

So a 2lb trigger glock/M&P/XD with no safety available is perfectly safe in the holster but a 1911 with a 2lb trigger and the safety off in a holster is a DQ?

1. If it's stock the Glock has a working safety.

2. I've shot both Glocks and 1911s -- trigger travel is far longer in a Glock than a 1911.

3. If I understand the fire control mechanisms correctly, the 1911 has the hammer cocked, retained by the sear (?) until the trigger is pulled? The Glock actually needs to have the trigger pulled to the rear to fully tension the striker.

4. There have been reports of 1911 hammers dropping when the primary safety is released; I haven't heard that happen when a Glock's trigger safety is depressed, unless the trigger was also pulled.....

5. The two gun types fall into totally different mechanisms of action, governed by totally different requirements according to the rulebook.

So yes, during the course of fire, a 1911 in the holster with the safety off is a match DQ.

[Nik Habicht]

half cock

That's more fail safe than safety, no?

[juan]

I dont condone the activity I seem to be supporting, and I was setting aside the rule book. I don't know what I'm trying to say, Nik. So would these guys be more calm if it was a series 80?

Edited July 22, 2011 by juan

[mlmiller1]

So a 2lb trigger glock/M&P/XD with no safety available is perfectly safe in the holster but a 1911 with a 2lb trigger and the safety off in a holster is a DQ?

Bofe, about the glock, it does not have a hammer, spring loaded, waiting to be released like the 1911 cocked & locked does. It has only a firing pin with less than half of it's spring pressure preloaded with a round in the chamber. This is of course not to mention the fact the glock also has the passive safety which is supposed to be checked at chrono in place when the gun is loaded & made ready. I don't know about the other guns on your list. It doesn't take a tremendous blow to an exposed hammer to make the 1911 sear disengage & drop the hammer causing it to fire whereas there is nothing except the trigger on the outside of the glock that will make it fire. Lots of difference.

MLM

[sidnal]

What came to mind when i read this earlier is the fact that I've accidentally done that a couple of times while practicing with my 1911. Gun is safe and holstered. Beep....I grab the gun but it is still locked into my crspeed holster. click, off goes the safety. I didn't mean to that but it is dangerous. It's never happened in a mach becasue I try to avoid that scenario!

[Flexmoney]

This thread isn't about safeties and such...which is probably covered elsewhere.

It's about manipulating the gun's fire control parts while in the holster.

[Nik Habicht]

I dont condone the activity I seem to be supporting, and I was setting aside the rule book. I don't know what I'm trying to say, Nik. So would these guys be more calm if it was a series 80?

I wouldn't make a distinction between a Series 70 or 80, or between a 1911, a Browning Hi-Power, or a CZ carried cocked and locked.....

I see this as one of those situations no good can come from, and if something bad comes from it, it'll be really bad....

[Singlestack]

I dont condone the activity I seem to be supporting, and I was setting aside the rule book. I don't know what I'm trying to say, Nik. So would these guys be more calm if it was a series 80?

I wouldn't make a distinction between a Series 70 or 80, or between a 1911, a Browning Hi-Power, or a CZ carried cocked and locked.....

I see this as one of those situations no good can come from, and if something bad comes from it, it'll be really bad....

Kinda like catching a falling gun, huh?

[lcs]

As I said earlier, there is a tactical/practical side of this to consider

, being legal, for instance)

I will re-state...if we do see this rule get clarified...

I see no reason for anybody to need to manipulate the fire control parts (safety, hammer, etc.) while the gun is in the holster... loaded or not.

Anybody else?

Agreed.

[AzYooper]

I also feel a bit uneasy about taking a safety off too soon on a draw or even in the holster, but unless the gun was released (hand off) in the holster in an unsafe condition I would say no DQ. If it is not "hands off" when is the gun officially holstered, muzzle breaking the plane of the top of the holster? trigger covered? some angle of the draw or holstering? When the gun bottoms out in the holster (what if is seems like it is all the way in, but needs a final push down click?

The rule stated many times in this thread mentions "Holstering" and it sounds like an act to me, but is that what it should be? For instance:

1. I'm told to LAMR by the RO
   
2. draw my pistol
   
3. insert a magazine in and chamber a round
   
4. start to lower my pistol while I apply the thumb safety
   
5. insert the pistol into the holster
   
6. remove my hand from the grip
   

I use this process every time and I see others use the exact same process. I consider the forth step in my list as the act of holstering and during the start of that step my safety was not applied. The safety is only applied after the act has been initiated. During my holstering process my gun is I never pointing within 10 feet of my position before the safety is applied because I feel it is safer that way and less chance of a DQ, but is that required?

I also would certainly have a talk with the shooter if that shooters draw involved flipping off the safety before removing the gun from the holster, but that is a small slice of time with some of the faster draws.

[sperman]

Can someone show me the rule that says it's OK to flip the safety off in the holster as long as you keep your hand on the gun?

[Gary Stevens]

Lost two shooters at Area 8 a couple of years ago. One lady put a loaded, cocked 1911 in the holster without the safety engaged and assumed the start position . DQ.

Other shooter put the 1911 in his holster and as part of his "make ready routine" stood there and flicked the safety on and off 2-3 times. His hand was on the gun, and he was not in the act of drawing. As soon as that safety came off, as far as I was concerned he had a loaded 1911 in the holster with no safety applied. A DQ was issued, and I feel it was absolutely the right thing to do.

If an Arb committee wants to put their names on a document sanctioning this action, then they can defend it in a civil suit. I'll be more than happy to state why I felt it was unsafe and why the DQ was issued.

Safety is job one.

Gary

[Skydiver]

I'm sorry guys, I meant this to be a simple question, but looks like better minds have figured out that there is more to my original question than I thought. Good in a way since this seems to be a healthy discussion.

So far what I've gathered from this thread is:

Between "Make Ready" and "Stand By", if the gun is loaded and in the holstered, flipping off the safety is definitely unsafe gun handling warranting a DQ. Ideally under 10.5.11, but also 10.5 just in case the term "holstering" in 10.5.11 refers to the act rather than the state.

After the "Start Signal", if the gun is loaded and holstered, flipping off the safety is unwise, but not a DQ under 10.5.11 or 10.5 as long as it is part of the draw.

Although I started this thread talking about flipping off the safety what actually inspired me to start this was a thread about cocking the hammer of a loaded production gun in the holster. So applying the previous logic for the safety (since in it rule 10.5.11.1 that is about the safety and 10.5.11.2 that is about the hammer) it looks like we get:

Between "Make Ready" and "Stand By", if the gun is loaded and in the holstered, cocking the hammer is definitely unsafe gun handling warranting a DQ. (Again ideally under 10.5.11, but also 10.5 just in case the term "holstering" in 10.5.11 refers to the act rather than the state.)

After the "Start Signal", if the gun is loaded and holstered, cocking the hammer is unwise, but not a DQ under 10.5.11 or 10.5 as long as it is part of the draw.

Suddenly, I'm nervous, specially if that production gun is pointed towards my toe. I'll still run the shooter, but I'd also probably have a conversation with them later about their technique.

Edited July 22, 2011 by Skydiver

[AzYooper]

Lost two shooters at Area 8 a couple of years ago. One lady put a loaded, cocked 1911 in the holster without the safety engaged and assumed the start position . DQ.

Other shooter put the 1911 in his holster and as part of his "make ready routine" stood there and flicked the safety on and off 2-3 times. His hand was on the gun, and he was not in the act of drawing. As soon as that safety came off, as far as I was concerned he had a loaded 1911 in the holster with no safety applied. A DQ was issued, and I feel it was absolutely the right thing to do.

If an Arb committee wants to put their names on a document sanctioning this action, then they can defend it in a civil suit. I'll be more than happy to state why I felt it was unsafe and why the DQ was issued.

Safety is job one.

Gary

I understand your point about the "flicking that safety on and off". The person who issued the DQ felt that holstering was complete as the gun was in the holster.

Besides any specific rules on safety it seems that the acceptable level of needed safety depends on RO opinion. I would think that flicking a safety on and off in the holster is less dangerous than sweeping yourself on the draw, but the latter is OK (by rule).

[juan]

let me ask this, I have on occasion while holstering accidently knock my safty to off,

and while holsterd placed it back on safe.

is this a no-go ?

[Nik Habicht]

I'm sorry guys, I meant this to be a simple question, but looks like better minds have figured out that there is more to my original question than I thought. Good in a way since this seems to be a healthy discussion.

So far what I've gathered from this thread is:

Between "Make Ready" and "Stand By", if the gun is loaded and in the holstered, flipping off the safety is definitely unsafe gun handling warranting a DQ. Ideally under 10.5.11, but also 10.5 just in case the term "holstering" in 10.5.11 refers to the act rather than the state.

After the "Start Signal", if the gun is loaded and holstered, flipping off the safety is unwise, but not a DQ under 10.5.11 or 10.5 as long as it is part of the draw.

Although I started this thread talking about flipping off the safety what actually inspired me to start this was a thread about cocking the hammer of a loaded production gun in the holster. So applying the previous logic for the safety (since in it rule 10.5.11.1 that is about the safety and 10.5.11.2 that is about the hammer) it looks like we get:

Between "Make Ready" and "Stand By", if the gun is loaded and in the holstered, cocking the hammer is definitely unsafe gun handling warranting a DQ. (Again ideally under 10.5.11, but also 10.5 just in case the term "holstering" in 10.5.11 refers to the act rather than the state.)

After the "Start Signal", if the gun is loaded and holstered, cocking the hammer is unwise, but not a DQ under 10.5.11 or 10.5 as long as it is part of the draw.

Suddenly, I'm nervous, specially if that production gun is pointed towards my toe. I'll still run the shooter, but I'd also probably have a conversation with them later about their technique.

Not quite. I firmly stand behind the notion that flicking the safety off in the holster is a match DQ even during the draw -- but I'll concede right now that I'll probably never be able to see that violation of the safety rules. This one isn't likely to get called -- the movement is too small, and there is too much else going at the time.....

Cocking the hammer of a DA gun while it's holstered is similarly a match DQ. That's a larger motion, that an RO is more likely to see -- I'd probably be able to call that at least some of the time....

Fortunately, around these parts, situations like these don't come up often....

[Nik Habicht]

I would think that flicking a safety on and off in the holster is less dangerous than sweeping yourself on the draw, but the latter is OK (by rule).

With pretty specific limitations:

10.5.5.1 Exception – A match disqualification is not applicable for sweeping of the lower extremities (below the belt) while drawing or re-holstering of the handgun, provided that the competitor’s fingers are clearly outside of the trigger guard. This exception is only for holstered handguns.

I think every holster I own points the muzzle at my leg below the holster.....

[Nik Habicht]

let me ask this, I have on occasion while holstering accidently knock my safty to off,

and while holsterd placed it back on safe.

is this a no-go ?

Probably should consider ensuring that won't happen -- thumb under safety, pushing up?

Accidentally or on purpose don't really matter -- we don't let people keep playing because they accidentally broke the 180....

[aztecdriver]

Lost two shooters at Area 8 a couple of years ago. One lady put a loaded, cocked 1911 in the holster without the safety engaged and assumed the start position . DQ.

Other shooter put the 1911 in his holster and as part of his "make ready routine" stood there and flicked the safety on and off 2-3 times. His hand was on the gun, and he was not in the act of drawing. As soon as that safety came off, as far as I was concerned he had a loaded 1911 in the holster with no safety applied. A DQ was issued, and I feel it was absolutely the right thing to do.

If an Arb committee wants to put their names on a document sanctioning this action, then they can defend it in a civil suit. I'll be more than happy to state why I felt it was unsafe and why the DQ was issued.

Safety is job one.

Gary

Hey Gary,

1. 10.5.11 - text book, right?

2. Is this 10.5.11 - and still considered holstering, or was the DQ issued under the blanket 10.5

Look, I'm not advocating that it's not. Undoubtedly it's dangerous as sin, but I want to make sure I quote the correct rule and reasoning. I want to make sure I answer either a question from the shooter, RM, or arb committee as concisely as possible.

Is it the argument that when you are manipulating the weapon in the holster you are actively holstering, until you take your hand off and it's inert? And then if you put your hand back on it you are again holstering if you didn't bring it out? I'd get behind that. If I get overruled - I get overruled.

[Nik Habicht]

Aztec,

this may help -- thanks to JT for the cite earlier:

8.5.2 If a competitor holsters a loaded handgun at any time during a course of fire, it must be placed in the applicable handgun ready conditions

(see Section 8.1). Violations will be subject to match disqualification (see Rule 10.5.11).

8.5.2.1 For a single action self-loader the safety must be applied.

8.5.2.2 For double action self-loaders and revolvers the hammer must be down.

To me the intent is pretty clear, it's not just about the act of holstering, it's also about the condition the gun is in in the holster, i.e. if the gun is loaded, then the safety needs to be on for singleaction guns, or the hammer must be down for DA guns....

[spanky]

If that is the intent then the rule's wording should reflect that. IMO it does not.

[Jim Norman]

Actually the rule really is pretty damned clear. If you holster your gun it had better be in the ready condition specified when you do. It does not say you can then change that condition after you holster.

Leave holstering out i=of it for a moment, If you place your gun on the ground AND remain within 3 feet, it must be in the placed on safe, correct? What would happen if you after placing the gun on the ground, on safe, if you moved to it and took it off safe? You would be DQ'd, the rule doesn't state you can't take the safety off after placing the gun, it states you must place the gun with the safety on. I see no difference.

[Skydiver]

Actually the rule really is pretty damned clear. If you holster your gun it had better be in the ready condition specified when you do. It does not say you can then change that condition after you holster.

Leave holstering out i=of it for a moment, If you place your gun on the ground AND remain within 3 feet, it must be in the placed on safe, correct? What would happen if you after placing the gun on the ground, on safe, if you moved to it and took it off safe? You would be DQ'd, the rule doesn't state you can't take the safety off after placing the gun, it states you must place the gun with the safety on. I see no difference.

The way 10.5.3, it makes it explicit what state the gun must be in when in the act of putting the gun on on the ground (or some stable object), and makes it clear that that it must remain in that state. (Or at least that's the way I read 10.5.3.)

Unfortunately, 10.5.11 is clear about what state the gun must be in while holstering, but makes no further mention that the gun must remain in that state while holstered. But then again, that brings up my original question of whether "holstering" refers to the act of putting the gun in the holster, or if it refers to the state of having the gun in the holster.

[twodownzero]

I'm really surprised this discussion is still going on, despite the language of the rules. The language has to be our guide. "Holsters" is a verb. It does not state a condition.

If they wanted to make it DQable to have a "holstered, cocked, unlocked" firearm, they should have done so.

Nobody should be issuing a match DQ unless the rule book specifically requires them to do so given the circumstances.

No matter how stupid an action might be, if the rules don't create a bright line between DQ and no-DQ, it's not DQable.

It's easy to say that the competitor shouldn't be doing this at a match, but it's similarly easy to say that if the organization wants to make this act a DQable offense, that they can change the language to cover this behavior.

A lot of the discussion seems to surround how stupid it is to manipulate the fire control components, comparing to other firearm designs, etc., but all of that is irrelevant. The rule is that a competitor is not DQed unless he violates a rule that requires a DQ. There is no rule against having a "holstered" firearm that is not in the safe condition specified for that type of gun. This is not a discussion about semantics. If the rule doesn't fit, you must acquit. FWIW, I agree totally with how stupid this action is. It's absolutely stupid to switch off the mechanical safety, which is blocking the sear, while your gun is in the holster.

All this talk about "if I was on the arb committee" is all fine and dandy, but if I were on that arb committee and saw people disregarding the language of the rules to suit the ends they wanted to see from that arbitration, I'd be having long talks with the NROI about whether that person should continue to be a range officer.

This is a relatively clear rule that really shouldn't require 3 pages of discussion. "Holstered" is not "holsters." The language, not our intuition about safety considerations, is our ultimate guide. The language is binding if it is definitive. And it is here.

Please excuse the tone, as no disrespect was intended.

Edited July 25, 2011 by twodownzero

[spanky]

Actually the rule really is pretty damned clear. If you holster your gun it had better be in the ready condition specified when you do. It does not say you can then change that condition after you holster.

Respectfully, the rule book is obviously not "damned clear" to some since this discussion is still ongoing. You're right, the rule book doesn't say you can change the condition in the holster. It also says you can't. What it does say is that it has to be C&L (or D/C'd) while holstering. And to issue a DQ if a competitor holsters.