lvipscshooter Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 (edited) OK, I want to pick everyone's brain! I had a jammomatic open gun at out local match today, and would like some input as to what you all think might be the issue is. What is happening is the spent case is coming 1/2 out of the chamber and slipping off the extractor (Aftec). My first thought is the extractor is too loose. Opinons? Until today, this happened 3 times before in the last 1000 rounds fired. Today, I could fire no more than 4 in a row before it jammed I am also thinking it could be a mag issue, but it did it with every one of my mags, so I'm not sure on that one (ask me how I found that out ) I have attached a photo of one of the jams Thanks all! Edited July 3, 2011 by lvipscshooter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhshooter Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 DId it happen when the mags were full? or all the time with them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lvipscshooter Posted July 3, 2011 Author Share Posted July 3, 2011 DId it happen when the mags were full? or all the time with them? It happened the first couple rounds in on each magazine, then every 4th or 5th round till I decided to end the futility Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blaster113 Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 Did you pull the extractor out and inspect it? I had an AFTEC in an Edge and it started to have failures to extract. Eventually it wouldnt extract at all. Pulled it out and it was cracked by the hook area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lvipscshooter Posted July 3, 2011 Author Share Posted July 3, 2011 Did you pull the extractor out and inspect it? I had an AFTEC in an Edge and it started to have failures to extract. Eventually it wouldnt extract at all. Pulled it out and it was cracked by the hook area. I can post photos if needed, but the extractor looks fine to me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhshooter Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 DId it happen when the mags were full? or all the time with them? It happened the first couple rounds in on each magazine, then every 4th or 5th round till I decided to end the futility Well my simple idea is shot, I know on my mags I can't load them to capacity or I have terrible problems, but after relieving some pressure from the spring it usually works out. In that case it does not sound magazine related IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLM Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 Aftec springs getting old and weak? Maybe one is broke? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianATL Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 Clean extractor tunnel and new Aftec springs would be the first thing I would try. Might want to go ahead and order a new extractor never hurts to have a spare that works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lvipscshooter Posted July 4, 2011 Author Share Posted July 4, 2011 Clean extractor tunnel and new Aftec springs would be the first thing I would try. Might want to go ahead and order a new extractor never hurts to have a spare that works. I changed the Aftec springs at the range and it worked for 12 shots out of one mag and then it did it again. For what its worth, I tried to duplicate it here at the house with a spend case. If I drop an empty case in and just pop the extractor over it, it skips over the rim and leaves the case in the chamber. If I drop the slide, it picks it up. Don't know if that means anything. It will extract an unfired case with no issues no matter what. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianATL Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 Try some factory ammo to take an ammo problem out of the equation. How tight does your extractor hold the case on the breechface? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lvipscshooter Posted July 4, 2011 Author Share Posted July 4, 2011 Try some factory ammo to take an ammo problem out of the equation. How tight does your extractor hold the case on the breechface? Can't do factory. It's an open gun running 38 SC. Loaded round is held "firmly" against breechface. When I cycle a live round slowly, it turns and drops out the ejection port. That is what is making me lean towards a mag issue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLM Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 Try some factory ammo to take an ammo problem out of the equation. How tight does your extractor hold the case on the breechface? Can't do factory. It's an open gun running 38 SC. Loaded round is held "firmly" against breechface. When I cycle a live round slowly, it turns and drops out the ejection port. That is what is making me lean towards a mag issue Have you measured the feed lip dimensions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lvipscshooter Posted July 4, 2011 Author Share Posted July 4, 2011 Try some factory ammo to take an ammo problem out of the equation. How tight does your extractor hold the case on the breechface? Can't do factory. It's an open gun running 38 SC. Loaded round is held "firmly" against breechface. When I cycle a live round slowly, it turns and drops out the ejection port. That is what is making me lean towards a mag issue Have you measured the feed lip dimensions? I have. They are .356 at the rear and .357 at the front Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superdude Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 can someone please explain how the magazine might be involved in this extraction problem? thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianATL Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 I would still give the ammo some attention as a possible problem. You started a thread recently about blowing a case head this might be a clue to a possible ammunition problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 can someone please explain how the magazine might be involved in this extraction problem? thanks. If the next round is too high it can cause too much drag on the extracting brass for the extractor to over come, over sized feed lips, super tight last round, bad mag catch, or wrong magazine catch slot could do it, (most of these have been eliminated.) To the OP, go back to everything that has changed since it worked, At one time the gun worked, now it doesnt what has changed ? It could be wear somewhere but I'd look at something else. based on your experiments with fired brass it is almost like the extractor is jamming in the out position, like the extractor spreads to go over the rim but never snaps back, During shooting the extractor moves to the right on ejection then every now and then stays that way for the next shot. If the springs are good, with an Aftec I'd look at the firing pin stop extractor fit, An aftec needs fitting in that area,or it could be burred up, Also look at burs or crud jammed in the extractor tunnel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lvipscshooter Posted July 4, 2011 Author Share Posted July 4, 2011 I would still give the ammo some attention as a possible problem. You started a thread recently about blowing a case head this might be a clue to a possible ammunition problem. I was thinking the same thing as well but I'm pretty sure the ammo is fine, I case gauge every piece regardless. That's the frustrating thing about this. The gun ran fine last weekend, I did nothing to it, and now this. Frustrating!!! LOL! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Powder Finger Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 Load an empty case.....remove the mag.......pull slide back slow.......does the case stay snug under the extractor? If not you have too little tension. You should be able to shake the gun around or have someone tap it in this condition and have the case stay put. Also if the hook is not square (looses tension the higher the case is) that would be another cause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lvipscshooter Posted July 4, 2011 Author Share Posted July 4, 2011 Load an empty case.....remove the mag.......pull slide back slow.......does the case stay snug under the extractor? If not you have too little tension. You should be able to shake the gun around or have someone tap it in this condition and have the case stay put. Also if the hook is not square (looses tension the higher the case is) that would be another cause. I will give this a try! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superdude Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 can someone please explain how the magazine might be involved in this extraction problem? thanks. If the next round is too high it can cause too much drag on the extracting brass for the extractor to over come, over sized feed lips, super tight last round, bad mag catch, or wrong magazine catch slot could do it, (most of these have been eliminated.) when the slide is closed the top round in the magazine is being held down by the underside of the slide. at that stage there is no such thing as too high. the top round in the magazine can't affect the extracting case until the slide has moved far enough to the rear to allow the round in the magazine to rise upward. the case should be mostly or completely extracted by this time. theoretically, if the front of the underlying round rose especially fast under magazine spring pressure it might push up on the brass as it passes by, but it would have to be under tremendous force to overcome extractor tension. and certainly the rest of the underlying cartridge would not be able to move upward until the slide has cleared the magazine. around this time the extracted case will be engaged by the ejector - especially in many of our pistols with extended ejectors. the OP's problem sounds like the classic extractor tension issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigpops Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 Do you have a non Aftec extractor you could try? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoshidaex Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 Is it me or does that ejector look a bit short? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superdude Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 Is it me or does that ejector look a bit short? it looks fine. it's actually a bit longer than the one i have, a 9mm that functions perfectly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric nielsen Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 (edited) Not trying to start an argument (at all). But... Most semi-auto pistols extract an empty shell directly onto the next loaded round that sits on top of the magazine. As the slide continues back, less and less of the top loaded round is being pushed on by the center-bottom shelf of the slide. The top loaded round gets more and more contact, with more & more leverage under it from the mag spring and other loaded rounds. Eventually the back of the empty shell hits the front of the extractor. Depending on how long your extractor is, the empty shell might be sitting nearly (not quite) directly on top of the casing of the loaded round below. You can prove if this if you have a Glock & several old, used Glock mags that have not been tweaked back to factory feed-lip dimensions. With a box of dummy rounds, you likely can feel the difference in retracting the slide over newer mags vs retracting the slide over older mags with spread feed lips. For sure you'll feel the difference between old mag and NO mag in the gun. It's a significant cause of failure-to-extract jams in guns like the Smith & Wesson M&P and the steel CCF aftermarket frame for Glock. 1911s and 2011s are usually more forgiving of spread feed-lips but when you throw in other variables like weakened AFTEC springs (I have an AFTEC in my open STI) then you can have problems. Another FTE cause that is pretty rare but worth looking at is extractor freedom of movement. With your gun field-stripped or even just with the slide locked back, you can take the side of a flat-blade screwdriver and check: push the extractor hook through it's normal range of motion. It should press back against your screwdriver consistently, while moving back and forth smoothly with no hiccups. Edited July 4, 2011 by eric nielsen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superdude Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 (edited) Not trying to start an argument (at all). But... Most semi-auto pistols extract an empty shell directly onto the next loaded round that sits on top of the magazine. As the slide continues back, less and less of the top loaded round is being pushed on by the center-bottom shelf of the slide. The top loaded round gets more and more contact, with more & more leverage under it from the mag spring and other loaded rounds. Eventually the back of the empty shell hits the front of the extractor. Depending on how long your extractor is, the empty shell might be sitting nearly (not quite) directly on top of the casing of the loaded round below. You can prove if this if you have a Glock & several old, used Glock mags that have not been tweaked back to factory feed-lip dimensions. With a box of dummy rounds, you likely can feel the difference in retracting the slide over newer mags vs retracting the slide over older mags with spread feed lips. For sure you'll feel the difference between old mag and NO mag in the gun. this demonstrates that there is upward pressure on the underside of the slide. nothing more. whether the round in the magazine contacts the extracting brass while the slide moves rearward is another issue. Edited July 4, 2011 by superdude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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