.40 MAJOR with N310

[PEETERSMARC]

Hi

I found this info on the site of Rob Leatham :

"Reloads: Nosler 180 JHP, Vihtavuori N310 powder, Starline brass, WW primers"

on http://www.robleatham.com/vaultequipuspsalimited.htm

is it possible to reload major safely (IPSC not USPSA) with this powder ??

Thank's

Marc

[.40AET]

http://home.columbus.rr.com/jmaass/documents/hl40sw.pdf

Jeff Maass' site doesn't list loads for any VV powders faster than N320. If you use 180g JHP bullets only, magnum or small rifle primers, the load may work for IPSC. It is unlikely that TGO would list such a load, much less use it every day if it was unsafe. Being too broke to be able to afford my gun blowing up, I'd opt not to use it. Others will be likely to disagree. JMHO....Actually, all speculation.

[Guest bulm5]

Matt Burkett was trying out this load but I could not get anyh info from him due to liability. It may just be too fast for .40 major but i may be wrong. I 'll stay with 320.

[TheOtherErik]

Man, I read that title and chringed big time. Well if you feel ok loading Clays to major, n310 isn't that much further up the chart. I heard of people using n310 with 155g bullets not 180g. I coulden't tell you where to even start, but start low and work your way up. Personally I woulden't do it unless I knew for sure the outcome would be ok.

Maybe Brian could get Rob to comment on this one.

[Yardbird]

The primers in my 10mm with 180 gr bullet and Titegroup are just starting to show a little flattening. I think N310 is a bit quicker than TG and in a .40 it would make me very nervous indeed.

[Flexmoney]

Don't forget...

1. TGO has been doing this stuff at the highest level since..forever.

2. His guns are custom made.

3. He sometimes shoots a 6 inch gun.

4. None of us are TGO.

[DougCarden]

Actually, with good brass, supported chamber, small rifle primers, and seating the bullet out to at least 1.200 to 1.220 OAL, I dont know why it couldnt be done safely. I currently am happy with CLAYS at 1.200 OAL with 180s myself......

[schmitz]

Just N320 under a 180 in .40!

N310/2F4U/RTF*M

DVC, Henny

[Bear1142]

Allright, let me start the revolt. I am using N310 & 200gr. bullets in my SV 40. I have been using it for about 2-3 years. I haven't had any problems with high pressure. Although N310 is a slightly faster powder compared to Clays, it has a more consistent pressure curve. Clays has a very steep pressure spike curve. For example, you could use 4.4 grns of Clays with no pressure problems, but at 4.6 you could be blowing out primers. N310 is more stable, meters better, and has a flatter, more consistent pressure curve. I have let several people test my ammo and compare it to other loads to see how they work. There has never been a problem in my gun or any of the others. I'm have never worked up a load with 180's, as I don't shoot them, but I think N320 is probably a better load for the 180's. I could only tell the difference between the N310 & N320 powders when I had them side by side. I couldn't tell the difference If I just picked up one out of the blue. When I've been asked for a recommendation, I always steer people to the N320 load. It's a little more forgiving. You can use it for both the 180's & 200's, and it's probably easier to find in the marketplace.

Erik

[Carlos]

Bear1142 wrote: " Allright, let me start the revolt. I am using N310 & 200gr. bullets in my SV 40. I have been using it for about 2-3 years."

Man, Eric, I was all set to write "you gotta be outta your freakin gourd to try 310/180s to major" & you come along w/ "been there, done that with 200s!!!" (for 2-3 yrs no less!). I am blown away.

No need to convince me that N310 is FANTASTIC powder; I use it under 147s/9x19/minor & got an SD of 6 w/ mixed cases, 5.4 w/ same headstamp. Accurate loads too. I also understand that one of the 1911 manufacturers (Wilson??) uses it for his .45/200grnSWC test target load included w/ each gun. The Bullseye competition crowd seems to love this stuff too. But I would have thought it too fast for major .40 until I saw your post. Guess I thought wrong!

Erik: "Although N310 is a slightly faster powder compared to Clays, it has a more consistent pressure curve."

Starting to make sense; all the VV powders are single base with VERY consistent curves - it is no accident that most of the Open shooters (who really push the envelope) insist on V V; its not the cheapest or the most widely available but it does not blow up guns with pressure spikes either. N320 was safe in .40 at OLD major; I guese NEW major allows long loaded .40 with N310.

Erik: are you using a U-die (or small base die for you rifle reloaders) for .40? A bullet setback with N310/200MAJOR would probably be a real nightmare.

[BigDave]

Is it me, or is this kinda like someone finally identifying the shooter on the grassy knoll?

[Jason Quick]

I’ve also been using 310 for .40 major, and agree with Erik that it is “safer” at major than Clays. I’ve only been using it for a couple of months and have burnt about 4 pounds so far. My load is with a 180-grain Star flat point loaded to 1.170” There is really no pressure signs with this load unlike the Clays load I tried at the same power factor. VV does not list a load, so I don’t feel comfortable listing my load, just start low and work up slow if you want to try it.

-Jason

[Bear1142]

Carlos,

Yeah, I've been keeping my load very quiet. Didn't want to give away all my secrets.

"Erik: are you using a U-die (or small base die for you rifle reloaders) for .40? A bullet setback with N310/200MAJOR would probably be a real nightmare."

Nope, just a standard re-sizing die, but I do use the Lee factory crimp die. I use them for every pistol caliber I reload. It has a taper crimp built into the die and I set my crimp for .20" over bullet diameter, regardless of caliber and have never had a problem with setback. I am completely sold on them and I think they are wonderful. I haven't had a bad round since I started using the Lee die. I've even stopped using my case gauge to check my ammo. I even use glock brass and have never had a problem. I think it's the single most important thing you can do to solve any problems with your reloaded ammo.

Erik

[DougCarden]

Ok, had to do it. Chronoed ammo on Sunday. 50F Too windy to do accuracy work.

4.4gr. VV310 Lead 180 TC 1.210 OAL WSR primer 930 avg. SD=13 PF 167

My current match load 5.3 VV 320 WC 180fmj 1.200 OAL WSR 960 avg SD=11 PF 172

I am going to load up 500 rounds of the VV 310 load and shoot them side by side with the VV 320 load and my practice load of 180 lead with 4.4 CLAYS and see if I can tell a difference. I have found incredible loads with .45 and 38 short colt with VV 310. It aint cheap, but it would be nice to use one powder for most stuff. DougC

[Carlos]

"5.3 grns of N320 vs. 4.4 grns of N310" Both meet major. Sure, V V is not cheap but w/ N310 you are saving money already! Thanks to all of those sharing load data on this load. C.

[Flexmoney]

Note: I split out some 45 load data that got thrown into this 40 caliber thread. Please double check that the numbers you are reading are for the proper caliber.

And, in the future, everybody should make sure to keep the thread caliber specific.

Thanks.

[MoNsTeR]

Master Blaster 180gr polycoat

1.200" OAL

mixed brass

Federal Gold Match primers (long story)

Schuemann Classic 6" barrel

Temp: 42degF

Humidity: Snowing

Pressure: you flatlanders couldn't handle this mountain air!

4.1gr N310

(27 shots)

Mean 957.3fps (172.3PF)

SD 11.88

Hi 975.0fps

Lo 922.6fps

ES 52.4fps

4.2gr N310

(29 shots)

Mean 969.5fps (174.5PF)

SD 10.39

Hi 992.8fps

Lo 950.6fps

ES 42.2fps

And for comparison...

4.7gr N320

(19 shots)

Mean 1011.0fps (182.0PF)

SD 13.67

Hi 1035.1fps

Lo 984.8fps

ES 50.3fps

My old load was 4.9gr N320 under a Berry's 180FP, 948.2fps AVG, 24.7 SD.

Boy those Master Blaster bullets are FAST! At the very least I ought to be able to reduce the N320 load by two tenths and run with that. But since I'm mostly out of N320 and I have this big jug of N310, I'm going to shoot the 4.1gr load for a while.

[.40AET]

I thought you were using the N310 for your .45 loads?? Back when I had 16#'s of the stuff, despite the fact that I'm completely against it, the cheapskate in me would have used it. Between the longslide and the lack of resistance in the air, you should be using less than I ever would have at sealevel and with a 5" gun. I would still be scared that 8.2g would end up in a case by accident.

[Carlos]

"I would still be scared that 8.2g would end up in a case by accident."

-and therein would lie one of the powder company's primary concerns; the consequences of a severe set-back or a double charge of a very fast powder like N310 would be quite severe - probably more severe than with a slower burning powder such as those listed in the reloading manuals.

I personally avoid setback with a U die & use the powder check system on a 650; many .40 reloaders don't bother with these safety steps & probably should not consider using the N310 load. For the record, I am still using 320 for now, but I appreciate the data (thanks Noah).

[MoNsTeR]

.40AET, I do use it in .45 and 9mm as well. Using it in .40 is as much about standardization as performance.

Carlos, these are very real worries. I have checked, and 8.2gr N310 reaches near the lip of a .40 case, and would be easily visible from where I sit at my press (not to mention interfere with placing a bullet).

I also made sure to test what kind of setback I get. With brass cases and no lube, I can press a loaded round against the tabletop with most of my weight and not shorten it more than .002". With nickel cases it's a little worse, about .007". If some One Shot gets inside the case though, watch out! In an experiment where I lubed the inside of a brass case, I was easily able to set the bullet back from 1.200" to 1.13"-ish. As of now I have ceased using One Shot (a damn shame, as I loved the way it made my press run).

[Kevin Kline]

I remember talking with Michael Voigt about N320 vsN310 and he said the N310 was VERY slightly softer, but he didn't think it would make a difference in a match and would pick the N320 if made to and not think twice about it or feel disadvantaged.

I used N320 for ages and love the stuff. I would stick with it. I use TG now due to cost and it feels EXACTLY the same to me compared to N320. I get even faster velocities with lower loads.

[MoNsTeR]

I shot the 4.1gr load in a match sunday, it is NIIIIIIIIIIICE!

[olp73]

Hi

I had a post not so long ago about heavy 40 loads with 310 or 320. I am shooting a small frame Tanfoglio limited. All I got was that this is really dangerous and that I should try 330 or something ……I always reading that everything is so dangerous in this forum. But the other day I found a ten year old handgunner magazine. And to my surprise Enos himself were listed with a gun identical to mine. And not only that, he was shooting a 190gr. Sierra bullet with clay???? These loads are standard length of course. So maybe it isn’t so dangerous after all?? I am not sure, but I think that the powerfactor back then was 175?? This was the US nationals!

So, is there anyone who has a standard length load with 180/ 200gr. bullets using these powders?(vv310, vv320) Even if they don’t hold IPSC (standard) major (PF 170) I am interested!! I will be more than happy!

olp

[Carlos]

Hi Olp! Couple pieces of missing information might clear this up.

You wrote: "But the other day I found a ten year old handgunner magazine. And to my surprise Enos himself were listed with a gun identical to mine. And not only that, he was shooting a 190gr. Sierra bullet with clay???? These loads are standard length of course. So maybe it isn’t so dangerous after all?? I am not sure, but I think that the powerfactor back then was 175?? This was the US nationals!"

Its true that Enos & others in the past used straight, plain old Clays powder to make OLD 175+ PF major in .40. I was not aware that anyone did that in short .40 length (1.160" or less) - are you sure it was a small framed tanfoglio & not the large version that the 10mm/.38 super is built on? The large frame will take an OAL of 1.200".

In any event, what is missing is that shooters back then went to the extreme length of keeping their ammo in lunch coolers with ice packs to manage pressure with Clays. Brian mentioned that Clays is very spikey if, for example, your reloads are left in the trunk in the Arizona sun for a while. Do a google search on "Jeff Maass reloading" and there are ample warnings about Clays in .40 to Major. I have personally seen a Clays shooter experience a case head seperation, clear it, keep shooting and then break a barrel bushing. The pressure signs were extreme.

NOW, major today is 165+ and Brian has stated that with the lowered PF, he MIGHT consider using clays again and I personally believe he meant to say he would load it for his SV .40 & load it out to 1.200" length.

Loading super fast powder like N310 or Clays is a whole lot safer if you can find a way to manage pressure - such as loading long. One good reason that the manuals don't list N310 data for .40 is that they have to assume reloaders will load it to SAAMI lengths like 1.125" - which would be a big mistake.

Monster added that his gun is a bull barrel 6" SV built by Brian Hawley of Hawley Custom. I think also Bear mentioned that he shoots 200s & not 180s loaded long. Neither of them are loading short enough to fit your Tanfoglio. If you choose to follow their loads, I'd suggest following them EXACTLY and not shortening the load to fit in a small frame tanfoglio or other .40 that can't take more than 1.160" OAL. In particular, I would not load spikey, double-based Clays to a short OAL. THe less spikey, single based V V powders (again, loaded long) are the way to go. Regards & be safe,

D.C. Johnson

www.shootersparadise.com

[olp73]

Yes, I am sure that the loads were standard length. Or, at least, the article explicit said so.

……………………that clay stuff has to be great!! Can anybody tell me why someone is willing to kip there ammo in an icebox just to be able to use a special powder?????