Speed Shoot

[Graham Smith]

1.2.2.3 "Speed Shoot"-Courses of fire consisting of one continuous string of fire not exceeding 16 rounds shot on one or more arrays of multiple targets from a single location or view. No more than 8 rounds may be required without a mandatory reload and no more than one mandatory reload may be required in the course of fire.

Please help me understand this one. Everyone shooting revolver or single stack or production will have to do a mag change during a speed shoot whereas limited and open shooters won't. OK, I get that, but what difference does it make? It's not like the divisions are competing against each other.

What's so awful about a speed shoot with one string of 5 targets that there has to be rule forbidding it unless you force a mag change?

[Poppa Bear]

I think it is to be able to legally get around:

1.2.1.2 “Medium Courses” must not require more than 16 rounds to

complete and no more than 3 shooting locations. Course design

and construction must not require more than 8 scoring hits from

any single location or view, nor allow a competitor to shoot all

targets in the course of fire from any single location or view.

The medium course mandates a location change, the speed shoot mandates a reload.

[twodownzero]

Stages have to be 8 round neutral. See 1.2.1.

edit:

I see someone else was posting as I was.

Edited June 15, 2011 by twodownzero

[sperman]

1.2.2.3 "Speed Shoot"-Courses of fire consisting of one continuous string of fire not exceeding 16 rounds shot on one or more arrays of multiple targets from a single location or view. No more than 8 rounds may be required without a mandatory reload and no more than one mandatory reload may be required in the course of fire.

Please help me understand this one. Everyone shooting revolver or single stack or production will have to do a mag change during a speed shoot whereas limited and open shooters won't. ...

If the course of fire is more than 8 rounds, a reload is mandatory for all divisions.

[bbbean]

Stages have to be 8 round neutral. See 1.2.1.

I think the OP's question was "why?" Given that shooters in any given division are only competing against other shooters with similar mag capacity, why would it matter if every Single Stack or Revolver shooter had to do an extra reload? They aren't competing against the Lim and Open shooters.

ob note: I'm fine with the rule as it is and design my stages accordingly, but as a SS shooter, I have wondered about the 8 rd rule. As long as all the other SSers are reloading, I don't see a competitive (dis)advantage to an 8+shot array.

BB

[Graham Smith]

I think the OP's question was "why?" Given that shooters in any given division are only competing against other shooters with similar mag capacity, why would it matter if every Single Stack or Revolver shooter had to do an extra reload?

That's exactly the point. I understand about the whole 8 round per shooting location issue throughout the rules, but I don't understand the why behind it.

I could sort of understand this for a field course, you don't want a 32 round course with a single shooting box. Of course, that would be self defeating because no one would show up if that's all you ever did. But we always try and have a nice variety of stages and try and make things as freestyle as possible. This whole thing came to mind because I wanted to set up a speed shoot with 6 targets but to do that, I either have to force a reload or force a move which kind of messes up the whole point of the course - to shoot as fast as you can without hitting one of three strategically placed no-shoots.

[Poppa Bear]

I design courses with 10, 12, 16 shots available from one position all the time, BUT the same targets are available from other locations. The Open and Limited guys can stand and hose from a couple of locations, and in many cases much tighter shots, while the Rev, SS, and Production guys have the room to move and reload. It is all about having options.

That being said, opening the rules up to require 16 shots from one location without a mandatory reload opens up another can of worms. There are not a lot of shooters who do not already have the right equipment for Lim or Open but there will be some new shooters who do not have their mag extensions, or maybe an experienced shooter who for whatever reason is competing with a stock pistol with stock mags. They are not a to great of a disadvantage if they have room to move and do not HAVE to do a standing reload. Where do we draw the line?

[Poppa Bear]

I think the OP's question was "why?" Given that shooters in any given division are only competing against other shooters with similar mag capacity, why would it matter if every Single Stack or Revolver shooter had to do an extra reload?

That's exactly the point. I understand about the whole 8 round per shooting location issue throughout the rules, but I don't understand the why behind it.

I could sort of understand this for a field course, you don't want a 32 round course with a single shooting box. Of course, that would be self defeating because no one would show up if that's all you ever did. But we always try and have a nice variety of stages and try and make things as freestyle as possible. This whole thing came to mind because I wanted to set up a speed shoot with 6 targets but to do that, I either have to force a reload or force a move which kind of messes up the whole point of the course - to shoot as fast as you can without hitting one of three strategically placed no-shoots.

Under the one view restriction of 1.2.1.2 couldn't you place a wall/barricade in front of the shooter that forces them to shift their upper body and focus from one side to the other? 6 targets and 4 no shoots can still be shot very fast and still leaves more potential to tag a NS.

[Graham Smith]

Under the one view restriction of 1.2.1.2 couldn't you place a wall/barricade in front of the shooter that forces them to shift their upper body and focus from one side to the other?

It is my understanding that shifting the body does not count. You have physically move to another location.

[bbbean]

Under the one view restriction of 1.2.1.2 couldn't you place a wall/barricade in front of the shooter that forces them to shift their upper body and focus from one side to the other? 6 targets and 4 no shoots can still be shot very fast and still leaves more potential to tag a NS.

There are certainly ways to create options, but like the OP, I'm curious as to the original reasoning. The question isn't "is there a way to work around the 8 shot max from a given position or view." The question is "why have a maximum shots from any given position or view?"

I think a secondary question is "OK, so 8 round max works out well for Single Stack shooters and even gives Production shooters room to breathe, but why not 6 round max so the poor old wheelgunners don't have to do standing reloads?"

Just curious...

[Graham Smith]

Just to add to this, it looks like the 8 round per position rule is being applied across the board to everything - I think even classifiers are this way. And whenever you apply a broad rule, there are always going to be places where it just doesn't fit very well.

As a new MD and stage designer, I generally approve of the general rule even if it does make my life a bit more difficult some times; and a Speed Shoot is just such a place. It is already defined as a Special Course of Fire and as such, you would think that they would be a bit more flexible. The rule for a speed shoot eliminates the need to make someone move but does not remove the required reload - and that's what I don't get. Why remove one limit but not both?

Personally, I think that 16 rounds is excessive for a speed shoot. Twelve rounds seems to me to be a good balance - six paper or 4 paper and 4 steel. But that's off-topic.

[bluenite]

but why not 6 round max so the poor old wheelgunners don't have to do standing reloads?"

Just curious...

As a revolver shooter but not a good one, I can say that for me I like the occasional standing reload, It is some thing that has to be practiced, and shows off a skill set, and when it is hit well it is impressive.

I have thought about the 8 shot rule and think it is a happy medium.

Over 8 shots would handicap at least 2 divisions, under 8 can cause extra reloads for some, and when carrying 8 clips for rev. they are usually doubled up and easily assessable, but 8 mags behind the hips” ouch”.

Leonard

[Corey]

Why? Simple! Its an 8 round rule bc when the rules were made, thats what was written down.

Why do we shoot at brown targets, not white ones? B/c its a rule.

[Skydiver]

Why? Simple! Its an 8 round rule bc when the rules were made, thats what was written down.

Why do we shoot at brown targets, not white ones? B/c its a rule.

Actually the rule is "typical cardboard color". Our club did a major match a few years ago with a space / sci fi theme. One stage involved shooting the Star Wars storm troopers. I heard that there was some back and forth with Amidon trying to define what "typical cardboard color" while they were getting the stages approved. In the end, the storm troopers were white targets (with no-shoots being "single color different from scoring targets"). :-)

[spanky]

I propose we make it 10 shots and/or eliminate the 8 shots completely.

[Chuck Anderson]

but as a SS shooter, I have wondered about the 8 rd rule. As long as all the other SSers are reloading, I don't see a competitive (dis)advantage to an 8+shot array.

BB

So if the SS shooter running minor shows up with 10 round mags and doesn't have to reload on the 10 round array, you don't see a competetive dis advantage?

As far as Speed Shoots with 16 rounds being too much, don't make them 16 rounds. You can always run a 12 round Speed Shoot if you'd like. Or a 10, or 13, or whatever, as long as it's not more than 16.

[bbbean]

but as a SS shooter, I have wondered about the 8 rd rule. As long as all the other SSers are reloading, I don't see a competitive (dis)advantage to an 8+shot array.

BB

So if the SS shooter running minor shows up with 10 round mags and doesn't have to reload on the 10 round array, you don't see a competetive dis advantage?

On that stage, sure. But that tradeoff is part of the decision to run major in SS.

[Poppa Bear]

I think the OP's question was "why?" Given that shooters in any given division are only competing against other shooters with similar mag capacity, why would it matter if every Single Stack or Revolver shooter had to do an extra reload?

That's exactly the point. I understand about the whole 8 round per shooting location issue throughout the rules, but I don't understand the why behind it.

I could sort of understand this for a field course, you don't want a 32 round course with a single shooting box. Of course, that would be self defeating because no one would show up if that's all you ever did. But we always try and have a nice variety of stages and try and make things as freestyle as possible. This whole thing came to mind because I wanted to set up a speed shoot with 6 targets but to do that, I either have to force a reload or force a move which kind of messes up the whole point of the course - to shoot as fast as you can without hitting one of three strategically placed no-shoots.

I asked John a variation on this question:

John,

How much movement is required to comply with : Course design

and construction must not require more than 8 scoring hits from

any single location or view,?

Or is any movement required at all, just insert some sort of barrier that restricts the shooters view to 4 targets at a time?

The example I will give is two walls with ports intersecting each other.

1. The shooter CAN lean heavily to the left and then the right. Feet CAN stay in the same location.

2. The shooter can lean to the left and then drop to a low crouch as the upper body pivots to the right. Feet stay in the same location.

3. The shooter is able to just pivot their upper body and view either array through the applicable port.

Or would it be a case where even if the shooting area was 4' by 4' and the ports were located at the edges of the area it would still be considered one location?

His response:

Mike,

Good examples. It is best described, can you get all the shoots off unobstructive? In you example’s, yes it is one location, but you cannot fire on more than 4 targets from a single view, it’s like a Bianchi barricade and a box behind it, with a vision barrier extending out on each side of the barricade, you cannot see all the targets while standing in the middle, you have to lean out on the right and left to see them. If you had nothing in front of you and could see 8 targets and could just shoot them from that location/view, it is illegal, if you have to lean, move a couple of feet to see some of the targets and then lean or a couple of steps to get the rest, it is legal.

John

[Poppa Bear]

1.2.2.3 "Speed Shoot"-Courses of fire consisting of one continuous string of fire not exceeding 16 rounds shot on one or more arrays of multiple targets from a single location or view. No more than 8 rounds may be required without a mandatory reload and no more than one mandatory reload may be required in the course of fire.

Please help me understand this one. Everyone shooting revolver or single stack or production will have to do a mag change during a speed shoot whereas limited and open shooters won't. OK, I get that, but what difference does it make? It's not like the divisions are competing against each other.

What's so awful about a speed shoot with one string of 5 targets that there has to be rule forbidding it unless you force a mag change?

I've been doing some more thinking on this question and my thought process is that if a "Speed Shoot" is anything from 2 to 16 rounds it needs to have an 8 round mandatory reload to make it equitable across all divisions. The problem division being 8 shot SS Major against 10 shot SS Minor.

If a "Speed Shoot" was defined as between 12 and 16 rounds then it could be wide open because the division restrictions would force everyone but Limited and Open to reload.

I think it comes down to either restrict with reloads or define a Speed Shoot as 12 to 16 rounds.

[Graham Smith]

Mike,

While this does not apply to a speed shoot, it does apply to a medium course and it does open up a few doors. Perhaps this needs it's own thread under stage design.

[spanky]

1.2.2.3 "Speed Shoot"-Courses of fire consisting of one continuous string of fire not exceeding 16 rounds shot on one or more arrays of multiple targets from a single location or view. No more than 8 rounds may be required without a mandatory reload and no more than one mandatory reload may be required in the course of fire.

Please help me understand this one. Everyone shooting revolver or single stack or production will have to do a mag change during a speed shoot whereas limited and open shooters won't. OK, I get that, but what difference does it make? It's not like the divisions are competing against each other.

What's so awful about a speed shoot with one string of 5 targets that there has to be rule forbidding it unless you force a mag change?

I've been doing some more thinking on this question and my thought process is that if a "Speed Shoot" is anything from 2 to 16 rounds it needs to have an 8 round mandatory reload to make it equitable across all divisions. The problem division being 8 shot SS Major against 10 shot SS Minor.

If a "Speed Shoot" was defined as between 12 and 16 rounds then it could be wide open because the division restrictions would force everyone but Limited and Open to reload.

I think it comes down to either restrict with reloads or define a Speed Shoot as 12 to 16 rounds.

But the question (i think) is WHY does it have to be equitable across all divisions? You don't compete with people in other divisions.

[Poppa Bear]

If SS was 8 rounds for both major and minor I would agree. Then all divisions are dealing with the same restrictions.

If Speed Shoots were 9 or less, or 12 or more, then everyone could be on a level playing field. This is why I was comparing it to the rules for a medium course of fire. A medium course does not require a mandatory reload you just need to have some sort of a vision barrier to keep 4 targets or less visible from any one view. The speed shoot can have up to 8 targets visible from one view but to keep it equitable for the SS shooters they have a max of 8 rounds before requiring a mandatory reload.

[Singlestack]

If SS was 8 rounds for both major and minor I would agree. Then all divisions are dealing with the same restrictions.

If Speed Shoots were 9 or less, or 12 or more, then everyone could be on a level playing field. This is why I was comparing it to the rules for a medium course of fire. A medium course does not require a mandatory reload you just need to have some sort of a vision barrier to keep 4 targets or less visible from any one view. The speed shoot can have up to 8 targets visible from one view but to keep it equitable for the SS shooters they have a max of 8 rounds before requiring a mandatory reload.

Then the guys shooting SS Minor would lose the advantage of having more rounds.

[Graham Smith]

but to keep it equitable for the SS shooters they have a max of 8 rounds before requiring a mandatory reload.

I don't buy that as a reason. SS mag capacity is an issue of choice.

[Chills1994]

Just curious , how do you write up the WSB to say something about mandatory mag reload after the 8th round is fired? How are penalties assessed if the shooter fires off rounds 9 through 16 without the reload? I am a new match director and I am thinking that I would like to incorporate one of these speed shoot stages at my match on the 25th. Thanks!