Speed Shoot

[spanky]

I must be missing it but I don't see where 1.2.2.3 disallows engagement split (not necessarily order).

i.e. T1-T4, reload, T5-T8 versus T1 then T2 then T3 Then T4, reload,....etc.

Furthermore, if you can't specify target engagement, it seems the only possible directions you can give for a COF of more than 8 rounds is to say "reload after the 8th required shot" or something of that nature which doesn't really seem right. That also seems to disallow "shoot paper, reload, shoot steel."

Edited June 17, 2011 by spanky

[JAFO]

If the rulebook doesn't explicitly say that you can't engage what target you want to when you want to, you can.

This is that problem I posted about a while ago. A shooter can look at 1.2.2.3 and say, "the rules don't say I can't engage the arrays any way I want." The absence of the negative supports the positive.

A stage designer looks at 1.2.2.3 and says, "the rules don't say I can't stipulate an engagement order," but now the shooter says, "no, it doesn't say you can." Now the absence of the positive supports the negative. It just seems like a double standard and I get a little frustrated.

If Speed Shoots are to be considered unique unto themselves, apart from other Special Courses like Classifiers, then I agree that the description needs to be modified to allow stipulating the engagement order, whether by expanding 1.2.2.3 or by including Speed Shoots into 1.1.5.1.

Edited June 17, 2011 by JAFO

[Graham Smith]

A stage designer looks at 1.2.2.3 and says, "the rules don't say I can't stipulate an engagement order,"

1.1.5.1 Level I matches may use shooting boxes and specify where or when specific target arrays may be engaged. <snip>

[Sherwyn]

Easiest way I found to define without stipulating order is to define 2 target arrays.

As target array A is T1, T3, T5, T7

Target array B is T2, T4, T6, T8

On start signal engage either array A or B perform a mandatory reload and engage the remaining array.

And I believe 8 rounds was used to stay consistent with not requiring more than 8 rounds without from single view.

Sherwyn

[Poppa Bear]

A stage designer looks at 1.2.2.3 and says, "the rules don't say I can't stipulate an engagement order,"

1.1.5.1 Level I matches may use shooting boxes and specify where or when specific target arrays may be engaged. <snip>

1.1.5.1 is a level 1 exemption BUT in my opinion it is one best left to I do not have the necessary props so I will specify what and where to shoot from to overcome the 1.1.5 "Freestyle" rule. If you have the props I think it is better to use them so that the COF would be even Level III compliant.

[Poppa Bear]

If the rulebook doesn't explicitly say that you can't engage what target you want to when you want to, you can.

This is that problem I posted about a while ago. "the rules don't say I can't engage the arrays any way I want." The absence of the negative supports the positive.

A stage designer looks at 1.2.2.3 and says, "the rules don't say I can't stipulate an engagement order," but now the shooter says, "no, it doesn't say you can." Now the absence of the positive supports the negative. It just seems like a double standard and I get a little frustrated.

If Speed Shoots are to be considered unique unto themselves, apart from other Special Courses like Classifiers, then I agree that the description needs to be modified to allow stipulating the engagement order, whether by expanding 1.2.2.3 or by including Speed Shoots into 1.1.5.1.

Let's remove the double negatives here and make it clearer:

A shooter can look at 1.2.2.3 and say, "the rules do say I can engage the arrays any way I want."

A stage designer looks at 1.2.2.3 and says, "the rules do say I can stipulate an engagement order," but now the shooter says, "no, it doesn't say you can.

The shooter is saying the same thing both times "you cannot specify the shooting order"

Edited June 18, 2011 by Poppa Bear

[bluenite]

1.1.5.1 is a level 1 exemption BUT in my opinion it is one best left to I do not have the necessary props so I will specify what and where to shoot from to overcome the 1.1.5 "Freestyle" rule. If you have the props I think it is better to use them so that the COF would be even Level III compliant.

I am in complete agreement.

Any unnecessary use of 1.1.5.1 other then to over come safety issues.

Takes away from PRINCIPLES of USPSA Competitions # 8 (page I).

I think if club members want a good match they need to be involved and help out in whatever way they can, such as props.

I do not like being told I must engage targets in a pre set order.

Some shoot better left to right, some shoot better right to left.

If you know your strengths, a competition is where you want to use that knowledge.

[Poppa Bear]

Our usual outdoor range filed for bankruptcy last fall so even now we are doing all of our shooting indoors. It is tough designing challenging stages when you cannot shoot steel and cannot fire off to the side unless the design allows for a cross range shot that still impacts the backstop. That said I do as much as I can to design stages that allow for multiple ways to engage the targets and either allow them to start anywhere in the shooting area or specify a rear center start that forces everybody to choose their best order of engagement.

Thanks to this thread and its rules discussion as well as some other threads along the same lines I think I can now put together some challenging Speed Shoots that are fully rules compliant.

Edited June 18, 2011 by Poppa Bear

[JAFO]

Let's remove the double negatives here and make it clearer:

A shooter can look at 1.2.2.3 and say, "the rules do say I can engage the arrays any way I want."

A stage designer looks at 1.2.2.3 and says, "the rules do say I can stipulate an engagement order," but now the shooter says, "no, it doesn't say you can.

The shooter is saying the same thing both times "you cannot specify the shooting order"

Sorry, Poppa Bear, I didn't clearly communicate my point, and I admit the double negatives didn't help.

My point was basically that shooters tend view the rules for themselves by what is specifically prohibited, but they look at what stage designers can do by what's specifically allowed. It seems to be a double standard. It's not like stage designers aren't shooters, so why can't they view the rules in the same manner when designing as when shooting (i.e., only by what's prohibited)?

And as for the mention of 1.1.5.1, I thought that it should apply, but when I pointed that one out before, George Jones stated (in post #47) that it didn't apply, as 1.1.5.1 goes on to explicitly say, "...in short and medium courses only (not in a long course)." Speed Shoots are not short or medium courses, since they don't meet the requirements for either and are listed in the Special Courses of Fire section (1.2.2).

If you're setting up a Speed Shoot that is all from one view or location, I don't see props being very useful in forcing the mandatory reload at a certain point because you're not moving. But you need a way to force the reload prior to the last shot or some Lim/Open competitors will fire all 16 shots and then reload off the clock.

So my original question remains, if I can't specify target engagement order in a Speed Shoot because it violates freestyle and is not specifically allowed for that type of CoF, are there any other ways to designate when the reload should occur, other than requiring that it be performed prior to engaging the last target or firing the last shot? Either way forces Lim/Open shooters to reload on the clock, so it serves the purpose, but I want to make sure that any Speed Shoots I write up are going to be legal.

[Poppa Bear]

This is off the top of my head, but I would think that either placing a definitive gap between arrays to suggest a reload point or placing all targets in a continuous array and suggesting the reload before the last target is engaged can be accomplished by writing the rule 10.2.4 penalties into the WSB. "Shooter must perform a mandatory reload AFTER the first target and PRIOR to engaging the last target. Competitors who fail to execute the mandatory reload will be assessed a procedural penalty for each shot fired at the last target prior to reloading as per rule 10.2.4."

[Graham Smith]

"Shooter must perform a mandatory reload AFTER the first target and PRIOR to engaging the last target."

That's what we did this weekend and no one seemed to have any issues with it. There were three sets of 2 targets at progressively further distance. Most shooters shot the first four targets then did a reload and shot the last two. I saw one open shooter put two into the first target, reload, then shoot the rest, and I'm sure there were other variations, but no one complained.

Edited June 20, 2011 by Graham Smith

[Skydiver]

This is off the top of my head, but I would think that either placing a definitive gap between arrays to suggest a reload point or placing all targets in a continuous array and suggesting the reload before the last target is engaged can be accomplished by writing the rule 10.2.4 penalties into the WSB. "Shooter must perform a mandatory reload AFTER the first target and PRIOR to engaging the last target. Competitors who fail to execute the mandatory reload will be assessed a procedural penalty for each shot fired at the last target prior to reloading as per rule 10.2.4."

Does the shooter necessarily have to hit the first target? Let's say the shooter fires a shot in the general direction of a target, does a reload, and proceeds to truly hit T1 and on down to T6. Procedural or unsportsman-like conduct DQ?

[Skydiver]

This is off the top of my head, but I would think that either placing a definitive gap between arrays to suggest a reload point or placing all targets in a continuous array and suggesting the reload before the last target is engaged can be accomplished by writing the rule 10.2.4 penalties into the WSB. "Shooter must perform a mandatory reload AFTER the first target and PRIOR to engaging the last target. Competitors who fail to execute the mandatory reload will be assessed a procedural penalty for each shot fired at the last target prior to reloading as per rule 10.2.4."

Also there's a way to get away with only 1 procedural I think. Shoot T1-T6 with one round each, and T6-T1 with one round each. Since T1 was the last target and only one shot was fired "after the point where the reload was required", then only 1 procedural.

[George Jones]

<snip> Competitors who fail to execute the mandatory reload will be assessed a procedural penalty for each shot fired at the last target prior to reloading as per rule 10.2.4."

Why bother putting that in the WSB? It's already in the rulebook.

To explain - One of my pet peeves is the inclusion of unnecessary information in the WSB. Why repeat something which is already in print? All it does is waste time and the shooters start to wander off (mentally). Keep the WSB short and to the point, only including the items required by rule (3.2.1).

If the shooter doesn't know the rules, well..... it becomes a learning point when he earns a bunch of procedurals.

[Poppa Bear]

This is off the top of my head, but I would think that either placing a definitive gap between arrays to suggest a reload point or placing all targets in a continuous array and suggesting the reload before the last target is engaged can be accomplished by writing the rule 10.2.4 penalties into the WSB. "Shooter must perform a mandatory reload AFTER the first target and PRIOR to engaging the last target. Competitors who fail to execute the mandatory reload will be assessed a procedural penalty for each shot fired at the last target prior to reloading as per rule 10.2.4."

Also there's a way to get away with only 1 procedural I think. Shoot T1-T6 with one round each, and T6-T1 with one round each. Since T1 was the last target and only one shot was fired "after the point where the reload was required", then only 1 procedural.

It is true that they could get by with one procedural. The time wasted making all the transitions will more than compensate for the penalty they avoided.

[Nik Habicht]

This is off the top of my head, but I would think that either placing a definitive gap between arrays to suggest a reload point or placing all targets in a continuous array and suggesting the reload before the last target is engaged can be accomplished by writing the rule 10.2.4 penalties into the WSB. "Shooter must perform a mandatory reload AFTER the first target and PRIOR to engaging the last target. Competitors who fail to execute the mandatory reload will be assessed a procedural penalty for each shot fired at the last target prior to reloading as per rule 10.2.4."

Also there's a way to get away with only 1 procedural I think. Shoot T1-T6 with one round each, and T6-T1 with one round each. Since T1 was the last target and only one shot was fired "after the point where the reload was required", then only 1 procedural.

You go right ahead. I'm betting that any competitor of your ability, who doesn't game it will end up with a better score. Procedurals are (almost always) losers.....

[Nik Habicht]

This is off the top of my head, but I would think that either placing a definitive gap between arrays to suggest a reload point or placing all targets in a continuous array and suggesting the reload before the last target is engaged can be accomplished by writing the rule 10.2.4 penalties into the WSB. "Shooter must perform a mandatory reload AFTER the first target and PRIOR to engaging the last target. Competitors who fail to execute the mandatory reload will be assessed a procedural penalty for each shot fired at the last target prior to reloading as per rule 10.2.4."

Does the shooter necessarily have to hit the first target? Let's say the shooter fires a shot in the general direction of a target, does a reload, and proceeds to truly hit T1 and on down to T6. Procedural or unsportsman-like conduct DQ?

Typically the way we've phrased it "Engage all targets with sufficient rounds and perform one mandatory reload any time after firing the first round and prior to engaging the last target."

[Poppa Bear]

<snip> Competitors who fail to execute the mandatory reload will be assessed a procedural penalty for each shot fired at the last target prior to reloading as per rule 10.2.4."

Why bother putting that in the WSB? It's already in the rulebook.

To explain - One of my pet peeves is the inclusion of unnecessary information in the WSB. Why repeat something which is already in print? All it does is waste time and the shooters start to wander off (mentally). Keep the WSB short and to the point, only including the items required by rule (3.2.1).

If the shooter doesn't know the rules, well..... it becomes a learning point when he earns a bunch of procedurals.

I would agree that the mention of applicable rules would be better accomplished as part of the shooters meeting. More of a Stage X is a legal stage so do not argue its validity. If you want to refresh your memories look at Section 1.2 as well as section 10.2 of the rule books I know you all have in your range bags.

I have already designed a couple of COF's under 1.2.2.3 and I expect them to be questioned as soon as they see 5 to 8 available targets from one box.

[Singlestack]

Also there's a way to get away with only 1 procedural I think. Shoot T1-T6 with one round each, and T6-T1 with one round each. Since T1 was the last target and only one shot was fired "after the point where the reload was required", then only 1 procedural.

+ 1 mike. For 25 points I'm doing the reload.

[Singlestack]

Also there's a way to get away with only 1 procedural I think. Shoot T1-T6 with one round each, and T6-T1 with one round each. Since T1 was the last target and only one shot was fired "after the point where the reload was required", then only 1 procedural.

+ 1 mike. For 25 points I'm doing the reload.

ooopppsss... I just re-read your procedure. I take it back.

[JayWord]

All I can do is point out what the rules say.

1.1.5.1 does not apply to a Speed Shoot.

1.2.2.3 does not allow specifying any target engagement order.

I don't know if those restrictions were intentional or a result of an oversight, perhaps insufficient discussion of "what if?". Is it a problem? I think it is, as you have been discussing. Should it be addressed? Probably.

As to the "why" of no more than eight shots in a Speed Shoot (as opposed to arrays - 1.2.1.2 and 1.2.1.3), I can only suspect it was simply related to the array restriction. I was not involved in those discussions. The answer may be available from a BOD member serving in 2010.

George has it right.

The reason for the reintroduction of the "speed shoot" goes back to the problems with classifier design. We were only getting standards, ie multiple strings or 8 round squirters.

As far as the reloads are concerned. If you say after the first, or fourth round and before the last, they will not reload. Do the math. If they have the rounds, they will take a single procedural instead of reloading, because in 95% of the stages they will factor better without taking the 1-2 seconds to do the reload.

As far as 8 round neutral is concerned, it did two things, helped out Single stack and minimized the advantage 40 had, since 2x9=18. It is very hard to get a 45 mag to hold 18 rounds and either feed or reload consistently. Revolver guys were screwed the day they said a short course is 8 rounds or less.

Jay.

[JayWord]

Easiest way I found to define without stipulating order is to define 2 target arrays.

As target array A is T1, T3, T5, T7

Target array B is T2, T4, T6, T8

On start signal engage either array A or B perform a mandatory reload and engage the remaining array.

And I believe 8 rounds was used to stay consistent with not requiring more than 8 rounds without from single view.

Sherwyn

Hmmm,

Level 1 match maybe. Besides, Level 1 matches already had the ability to require reloads and specify target engagement in short and medium courses under 1.1.5.1. Level 2 or higher, nope, 1.1.5 over rules. That is why Speed shoots were added, otherwise those stages could not be shot at a Level 3 or higher match; therefore, they could not become a classifier.

Jay

[Nik Habicht]

All I can do is point out what the rules say.

1.1.5.1 does not apply to a Speed Shoot.

1.2.2.3 does not allow specifying any target engagement order.

I don't know if those restrictions were intentional or a result of an oversight, perhaps insufficient discussion of "what if?". Is it a problem? I think it is, as you have been discussing. Should it be addressed? Probably.

As to the "why" of no more than eight shots in a Speed Shoot (as opposed to arrays - 1.2.1.2 and 1.2.1.3), I can only suspect it was simply related to the array restriction. I was not involved in those discussions. The answer may be available from a BOD member serving in 2010.

George has it right.

The reason for the reintroduction of the "speed shoot" goes back to the problems with classifier design. We were only getting standards, ie multiple strings or 8 round squirters.

As far as the reloads are concerned. If you say after the first, or fourth round and before the last, they will not reload. Do the math. If they have the rounds, they will take a single procedural instead of reloading, because in 95% of the stages they will factor better without taking the 1-2 seconds to do the reload.

As far as 8 round neutral is concerned, it did two things, helped out Single stack and minimized the advantage 40 had, since 2x9=18. It is very hard to get a 45 mag to hold 18 rounds and either feed or reload consistently. Revolver guys were screwed the day they said a short course is 8 rounds or less.

Jay.

That's why it needs to be "anytime after the first round and prior to engaging the last target" -- assuming that we're talking paper, that gets you two procedurals....

On a stage with steel, it becomes more of a tradeoff....

[Nik Habicht]

Easiest way I found to define without stipulating order is to define 2 target arrays.

As target array A is T1, T3, T5, T7

Target array B is T2, T4, T6, T8

On start signal engage either array A or B perform a mandatory reload and engage the remaining array.

And I believe 8 rounds was used to stay consistent with not requiring more than 8 rounds without from single view.

Sherwyn

Hmmm,

Level 1 match maybe. Besides, Level 1 matches already had the ability to require reloads and specify target engagement in short and medium courses under 1.1.5.1. Level 2 or higher, nope, 1.1.5 over rules. That is why Speed shoots were added, otherwise those stages could not be shot at a Level 3 or higher match; therefore, they could not become a classifier.

Jay

Jay,

you're not really saying that it's o.k. to apply the Level 1 exemption to a speed shoot, are you? A speed shoot by definition is something different from a short or medium course.....

[Singlestack]

That's why it needs to be "anytime after the first round and prior to engaging the last target" -- assuming that we're talking paper, that gets you two procedurals....

On a stage with steel, it becomes more of a tradeoff....

I disagree Nik. I think the stage designer should be able to designate arrays. Shoot array 1 reload shoot array 2.

To me, reloading for one target is just wrong and if I can designate which target you have to reload before, why can't I designate the 5th target? Why just the last?