Ron Ankeny Posted April 16, 2004 Share Posted April 16, 2004 I did a search and came up empty. At the risk of sounding like a total newbie, here goes. I have a problem with getting a consistent grip with my open blaster. I am using an STI magazine well. I get a lot of shots going high right and this has been going on for a very long time. With an iron sighted gun I can readily see the relationship of the slide to the target face during the presentation so any minor inconsistency in the grip can be fixed on the fly. With a dot, I present the gun and if the dot is where it belongs all is good with the universe. If not, I need to move the dot at the end of the presentation. I am curious, is switching the magazine well a possible solution? I think the added material on something like a Bigmouth well could push the pistol to the right? Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted April 16, 2004 Share Posted April 16, 2004 I was having the same problem using the Dawson Ice magwell. I am using one similar to the Bigmouth now and it is pretty flat in the back. The Ice was like an arched MSH for me. So, IMO, the magwell can push the gun where you want/don't want it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reneet Posted April 16, 2004 Share Posted April 16, 2004 I think that if you think that a different mag well will help then it could solve your problem but that's not the 1st thing I would do.. . IF there's a problem with your grip, my suggestion would be to slowly practice obtaining a proper grip consistently. Shots going high right could possibly have more to do with what you're not seeing than your grip consistency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted April 16, 2004 Author Share Posted April 16, 2004 Shots going high right could possibly have more to do with what you're not seeing than your grip consistency. Can you elaborate? What I am not seeing is the dot where it belongs at the end of the presentation. I should be able to bring the pistol up with my eyes closed then open my eyes and have the dot where it belongs but that isn't happening as consistently as I would like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reneet Posted April 16, 2004 Share Posted April 16, 2004 It would be my assumption that you're using a C-More. If so, I understand completely and it had nothing to do with my grip on the gun but the presentation of the gun and the position of my head. What I would recommend is going backwards from your shooting position to discover exactly where the problem lies and what you need to do to fix it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted April 16, 2004 Share Posted April 16, 2004 "Get the gun up in front of your face"?? That helped me a lot-- I was throwing the gun out there at the end of my arms and if the dot was there, good, if not, I had to go find it. Some GM asked me "why are you doing that" and suggested bringing the scope up in front of my face sooner. Worked great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reneet Posted April 16, 2004 Share Posted April 16, 2004 "Get the gun up in front of your face"?? That helped me a lot-- I was throwing the gun out there at the end of my arms and if the dot was there, good, if not, I had to go find it. Some GM asked me "why are you doing that" and suggested bringing the scope up in front of my face sooner. Worked great. Excellent advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted April 16, 2004 Author Share Posted April 16, 2004 This "problem" never manifested itself with my Limited gun. My limited gun had a Bigmouth magwell that tended to push my hand up and it also filled the area between the grip and bottom "edge" of my hand a bit better. Adding material in that area will of course push the pistol to the right. This problem has been plaguing me for two years which of course translates into hundreds of hours of dry fire practice and many thousands of rounds live fire. I haven't been able to determine if the proplem is technique, ergonomics, or the difference between irons and the C'More. I suppose I am just thinking out loud. I know it is impossible to diagnose subtle little problems like this over the Web but I thought I would ask anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted April 16, 2004 Share Posted April 16, 2004 Ron, I don't know if this will help or not, but I was an open shooter first, then went to Limited. I didn't shoot my open gun all year until a week before nationals, and the first thing I observed imediately is I hold my open gun totally differently. My elbows are more down and gun the sight is closer to my face. With my open gun I can actually hold it about as close to my face as I dare without the slide hitting me in my nose. You can really "float" open guns much more than limited guns. I agree with Shred get it in front of your face. It may "feel" weird but it works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted April 16, 2004 Author Share Posted April 16, 2004 I need to think about this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
short_round Posted April 16, 2004 Share Posted April 16, 2004 Since your grip and magwell are the same on both guns and the only thing different is the iron vs. open sight, could it be something that you are doing buring your process of acquiring the dot? For me, I get the limited gun into the sight plane as fast as I can and push the gun out. As I do this I track the front sight right away I and "watch" my index take over as it goes out. At the end of the movement I adjust the rear sight to the front sight if my index didn't line the gun up. The heel of my strong hand seems to take over this part. I'm not sure if this process would work with the open gun. Since the dot is further forward I think that adjustments with the strong hand fingers would work better than using the heel. I'm guessing here ... I'm just hoping to spark some ideas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted April 16, 2004 Author Share Posted April 16, 2004 The magwells are not the same and I sold the Limited gun so I can't switch magwells to see if there is a difference. Bottom line is simple, I am trying to decide if it would be stupid to blow $80.00 for a different magwell when we know it ain't the Indian it's the arrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted April 16, 2004 Share Posted April 16, 2004 1. Don't buy anything new. Just take the magwell off. or 2. Test. Start with you grip already established with the gun in the holster. Then start the timer and go (as normal) from there. see if that makes a difference. 3. (well...do those first...I've got more) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted April 16, 2004 Share Posted April 16, 2004 You can send me the $80 I doubt it is the magwell. Look at photos of Chris Tilley in FS or wherever, he is definitely a "open shooter" from a technique point of view. Elbows really bent, gun right in front of the face. The closer the gun is the more you can see "through" your sight also. Good luck Ron. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted April 16, 2004 Author Share Posted April 16, 2004 OK, I am going to spend the eighty bucks on ammo. Thanks Flex. It never occured to me to remove the well. When I am close to a problem that has me baffled, I am usually the last one to see the obvious. On the brighter side, I found the last of the Easter eggs yesterday. I hid five of them on Saturday and only found two on Sunday. It's been a tough week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted April 16, 2004 Share Posted April 16, 2004 A definite factor, which may or may not have anything to do with your "problem," is, iron sights provide a certain amount of peripheral direction or indexing as the pistol is coming into postition, in addition to (that almost imperceptible instant when and) after it arrives. Whereas the CMore (CLess) provides absolutely no information whatsoever about where the gun is pointed till you see the dot. Disregarding that, you can learn to present ANY gun to ANY position, by combining a good level of awareness while dry-drawing. Do some eyes-open draws with a gun you're familiar with, on a blank wall. Then do the same thing, but close your eyes during the draw and then open them to confirm alignment. Do that until you can predictably confirm (either rough or) perfect alignment, (depending on how long you've trained with that pistol). The repeat, but before initiating the draw, give yourself the mental command to draw so as have the front sight sticking halfway out of the rear notch, when the pistol hits your index. Open your eyes and note how the sights are actually aligned, and don't think about it any more. Just keep repeating that - draw so the front sight is half out of the notch, then open your eyes and check the result - until you can begin consciously drawing with a high front site. If you can learn to do that you can learn to do anything. Which is why it might be a limitation to assign the problem a source. Just fix the problem. And be sure to let us know how it went without the magwell. Which was a good test, btw. be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brazos Custom Posted April 16, 2004 Share Posted April 16, 2004 Ron, e-mail me your address and I will send you a used Big Mouth. If it works buy a new one and send it back, if it does not just send it back. p.s. When I first developed the Big Mouth it was just to have a bigger magwell, easier to hit on reloads. As I was doing the testing during development I noticed I was shooting better and could not believe it was the magwell (that was the only thing I had changed.) So I took it off to test the theory and shot worse. What I figured out was that it locked my hand into a better shooting position for me. Also if I grabbed the gun wrong recoil would re-seat the gun in my hand properly because my hand would lock up between the beavertail and the magwell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted April 16, 2004 Share Posted April 16, 2004 Ron, I think you're on the right track. I had the same problem as SS: The Dawson Ice magwell had my gun pushed everywhere but where I needed it to go. I switched it for the minimalis EGW magwell (thank you Erik Warren!) and life was good. The other thing I discovered was that the undercut trigger guard, as wonderful as the recoil theory sounds, does zip for my ability to control the gun. I put on an unmodified grip and life has been just peachy. What this means for you, I have no clue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric nielsen Posted April 17, 2004 Share Posted April 17, 2004 The standard STI thick trigger guard points the gun a little higher than a normal 1911. The more material is "relieved" from there, the lower your gun points. And the more you need to bend your elbows to get a strong wrist position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalmas Posted April 18, 2004 Share Posted April 18, 2004 Ron, I love to experiment and have found that, with my long hands I don't have completet contact with both hands on the gun thus forcing the weak hand to squeze really hard around the strong hand and grip to get control, well I built my own grip, I'm now called mr. Concrete. With it I have complete contact with the gun with much less effort and much better control. At my level this was a revolution - After hacking around 3 sec I got under 2 sec first time I tried a bill drill. Now constant around 2 sec with the best at 1.79 I credit that to my new grip. Pics can be seen at Copenhagen Dynamic Shooters When seeing the pics remember I'm a lefy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted April 23, 2004 Author Share Posted April 23, 2004 Bob sent me a Bigmouth mag well and I tried it out. I have wide hands measuring across the palm from the base of the index finger to the base of the pinky finger. The Bigmouth magwell supports the heel of my strong hand and the way the front of the well is designed pushes my support hand up under the trigger guard. I get a much more positve grip and the dot comes up more consistently. I know trying every piece of gear under the sun isn't the answer to a defective shooting platform. However, both of my hands make contact with a large portion of the well so changes in the contact areas do make a difference. FWIW, (no Bob didn't pay me to say this) the Bigmouth well is a very well made product with excellent fit and finish. I also like the aesthetics. Then there is the added benefit of having a huge opening that a blind man can throw a magazine into. It's a keeper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBurkett Posted May 2, 2004 Share Posted May 2, 2004 Sounds like the magwell is working for you and that is cool! Question for you, how early are you getting the dot in the presentation? What are you using for a reference on the scope to find the dot? On a C-more I use the rear knob like a front sight and drive it up to the sight line - then the dot is just there. It really helps weak hand dot hunting! Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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