aztecdriver Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 To continue the edge hit discussion from flex's post, we ran upon this example this past week, and I thought I'd throw this photo up for discussion. How does this score? This was an indoor match and this no shoot was used to create a port between two stands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynn jones Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 not a no-shoot hit, not touching the line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFlowers Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 Based on what I can see in the picture, I agree with lynnjones, the hole is not touching the scoring perf nor is it inside the scoring perf so it is not a hit, regardless of the target type. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 Nothing to score as the hit is wholly outside the scoring area of the no-shoot. If a target downrange was hit within the scoring area, then it would score. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Jones Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 Too close to call without using an overlay, just like you would for a scoring target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 Does not appear to touch the perf. No score. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 Does not look like it touches the perf, so no penalty. But I would overlay it to be sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 As many targets as I have over-layed, that one would score the NS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RUSHARP2 Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 (edited) It really needs an overlay. I do not believe that it matters that the grease ring touches the perf or not. Edited June 2, 2011 by RUSHARP2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 I say bring out two overlays: one to find the center of the bullet, and the other to confirm the edge of the perf (just in case there's an optical illusion at play). If I find that the circle on overlay touches the edge, then it's a NS. That sucks for the shooter though. :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 Too close to call without using an overlay, just like you would for a scoring target. Yep, get the overlay out and see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 Too close to call without using an overlay, just like you would for a scoring target. Yep, get the overlay out and see. You are probably correct. But, do you have to call it one way or the other before the overlay? In my RO class, I was told to call it, and let the competitor challenge BEFORE pulling the overlay. I've been doing it this way for a long time, and the rulebook does not say one way or the other. I've never pulled an overlay, or seen one pulled without the competitor asking for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BayouSlide Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 Too close to call without using an overlay, just like you would for a scoring target. Yep, get the overlay out and see. You are probably correct. But, do you have to call it one way or the other before the overlay? In my RO class, I was told to call it, and let the competitor challenge BEFORE pulling the overlay. I've been doing it this way for a long time, and the rulebook does not say one way or the other. I've never pulled an overlay, or seen one pulled without the competitor asking for it. I often pull out an overlay before a shooter asks if it's close enough that I feel it should be double checked. I want everyone to get all the points they've earned and none that they haven't earned. Curtis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 Too close to call without using an overlay, just like you would for a scoring target. What he said! This really needs an overlay. Troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 Too close to call without using an overlay, just like you would for a scoring target. Yep, get the overlay out and see. You are probably correct. But, do you have to call it one way or the other before the overlay? In my RO class, I was told to call it, and let the competitor challenge BEFORE pulling the overlay. I've been doing it this way for a long time, and the rulebook does not say one way or the other. I've never pulled an overlay, or seen one pulled without the competitor asking for it. IF the hit was on a scoring line on a target, you'd most likely use your overlay to make sure it either did or didn't touch the line, right? So, why not use it here. Nobody has to ask. You use it to make certain of your call. Troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 IF the hit was on a scoring line on a target, you'd most likely use your overlay to make sure it either did or didn't touch the line, right? So, why not use it here. Nobody has to ask. You use it to make certain of your call. Troy Thanks, I will change that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 Too close to call without using an overlay, just like you would for a scoring target. Yep, get the overlay out and see. You are probably correct. But, do you have to call it one way or the other before the overlay? In my RO class, I was told to call it, and let the competitor challenge BEFORE pulling the overlay. I've been doing it this way for a long time, and the rulebook does not say one way or the other. I've never pulled an overlay, or seen one pulled without the competitor asking for it. When I RO, I regularly pull out overlays on close calls. There is no requirement for a competitor to request the use of overlays before they may be used. In my RO classes we were taught to use overlays on any close calls, to be certain that we were making the calls consistently... 9.6.4 Any challenge to a score or penalty must be appealed to the Range Officer by the competitor (or his delegate) prior to the subject target being painted, patched, or reset, failing which such challenges will not be accepted.9.6.5 In the event that the Range Officer upholds the original score or penalty and the competitor is dissatisfied, he may appeal to the Chief Range Officer and then to the Range Master for a ruling. 9.6.6 The Range Master’s ruling will be final. No further appeals are allowed with respect to the scoring decision. 9.6.7 During a scoring challenge, the subject target(s) must not be patched, taped or otherwise interfered with until the matter has been settled. The Range Officer may remove a disputed paper target from the course of fire for further examination to prevent any delay in the match. Both the competitor and the Range Officer must sign the target and clearly indicate which hit(s) is (are) subject to challenge. 9.6.8 Scoring overlays approved by the Range Master must be used exclusively, as and when required, to verify and/or determine the applicable scoring zone of hits on paper targets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztecdriver Posted June 3, 2011 Author Share Posted June 3, 2011 The reason I posted this was to bring back part of that discussion that implied that because this is an edge hit and we don't have a hole, the grease ring must touch the perforation, in order to be a hit. Maybe it was something in the discussion - but it threw a little bit of doubt into something that I was fairly certain about. As was my practice up until this previous conversation, take the overlay (I agree with Skydiver, actually two) and center it in the arc exactly, and see where the hit would have been. As with other holes, just because it is on the edge does not stop the fact that "shrinkage" of the cardboard applies, the grease ring arc would be slightly smaller than the arc that the overlay represents, and depending upon the actual line provided by the second overlay, it would touch or not touch the no shoot perforation and score appropriately. To be clear, and this was discussed at the time of the occurrence: 1. The SAME overlay process is used regardless if the hit is an edge hit, or a full hole in the target. Center the overlay over the arc that is in the target. Discern the line on the border with another overlay and determine if the line it touched by a diameter of the overlay. 2. It's NOT if the grease ring touches the line ONLY for edge hits. 3. The difference between those previously posted hits and this one is there is a whole - ie. missing target. 4. While I'm at it - there is no difference for no shoot targets versus shoot targets. They all score by the same rules - touching a line is a enough to score. (none of this it has to do more than touch, but must break stuff) All good right? I always overlay close hits while I'm ROing. Why? Well, it doesn't take any longer (most of the time) to check out a couple of close calls. I always have the overlays in my hand anyway, because that's my routine. If I were the shooter - I want the RO calling the target to be certain, not throwing a guess out there and waiting for me to challenge it. I would rather be certain in my call - than to have it challenged then reversed. I'm going to be right the first time - and the overlay does that for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 But there is a hole in this target. It's just on the edge. Troy The reason I posted this was to bring back part of that discussion that implied that because this is an edge hit and we don't have a hole, the grease ring must touch the perforation, in order to be a hit. Maybe it was something in the discussion - but it threw a little bit of doubt into something that I was fairly certain about. As was my practice up until this previous conversation, take the overlay (I agree with Skydiver, actually two) and center it in the arc exactly, and see where the hit would have been. As with other holes, just because it is on the edge does not stop the fact that "shrinkage" of the cardboard applies, the grease ring arc would be slightly smaller than the arc that the overlay represents, and depending upon the actual line provided by the second overlay, it would touch or not touch the no shoot perforation and score appropriately. To be clear, and this was discussed at the time of the occurrence: 1. The SAME overlay process is used regardless if the hit is an edge hit, or a full hole in the target. Center the overlay over the arc that is in the target. Discern the line on the border with another overlay and determine if the line it touched by a diameter of the overlay. 2. It's NOT if the grease ring touches the line ONLY for edge hits. 3. The difference between those previously posted hits and this one is there is a whole - ie. missing target. 4. While I'm at it - there is no difference for no shoot targets versus shoot targets. They all score by the same rules - touching a line is a enough to score. (none of this it has to do more than touch, but must break stuff) All good right? I always overlay close hits while I'm ROing. Why? Well, it doesn't take any longer (most of the time) to check out a couple of close calls. I always have the overlays in my hand anyway, because that's my routine. If I were the shooter - I want the RO calling the target to be certain, not throwing a guess out there and waiting for me to challenge it. I would rather be certain in my call - than to have it challenged then reversed. I'm going to be right the first time - and the overlay does that for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldchar Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 Overlay time jgross Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 I always overlay close hits while I'm ROing. Why? Well, it doesn't take any longer (most of the time) to check out a couple of close calls. I always have the overlays in my hand anyway, because that's my routine. If I were the shooter - I want the RO calling the target to be certain, not throwing a guess out there and waiting for me to challenge it. I would rather be certain in my call - than to have it challenged then reversed. I'm going to be right the first time - and the overlay does that for me. I am going to change and overlay close hits in the future, however I did not mean to imply that I guess. I'm very careful, and look long and hard before the call, and I have never had a call challenged above me that was reversed. Just how I was originally taught and I was not the only one, so I applaud the question. Brought out something I can do better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 I would not mind if the non-scoring border went away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluenite Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 Half my shots just touch that perf. If it went away, I would never get a scored hit. Leonard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldchar Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 I would not mind if the non-scoring border went away. Anytime a target was dropped on the ground the scoring area would change. Not good. Jgross Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 Half my shots just touch that perf. If it went away, I would never get a scored hit. Leonard Yes you would. The only thing gone would be the non-scoring portion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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