Factory 9mm not making Minor PF

[Schutzenmeister]

Good thread. Great replies. I will say too rules are rules. There is no reason to lower the PF for Minor. A shooter needs to understand how ammo functions in his pistol. Also, a shooter must know the rules when he participates in matches above the club level. No one else is going to do it for him, especially at the club level (as mentioned above). Sloppy club matches do no one any favors. It is the shooter's responsibility to know the facts.

Agreed, generally.

However I would add that it is the local club's responsibility to try to help and coach new shooters in order to minimize the chances of things like this occuring when they get to higher-level matches.

[aztecdriver]

I admit, there are definitely factory ammo/gun combinations that will make it. But will the brand new shooter know what those combos are? Sucks for them to have to buy a certain kind of ammo and put it through a certain kind of gun to compete for score. When the guy at the OH Sectional went sub-minor with factory ammo, it just made me think about what a pattern like this might do to our sport and if we should make changes to it doesn't hurt it.

Not trying to sound trite or flip - or even superior - just want to throw this out as a point to think about. Do you think that the new person was prepared to be at a State Championship Match? Think about this for a minute - not a lot of sporting events treat near every major event as an Open. - ie., you pays your fee you takes your spin. Short of nationals - anyone else an invitational?

That being said, were they prepared? There's certain things you do - make sure the gun can hit the target, clean it - take a set of spare parts, tools, backup gun. Take your clothes - shouldn't checking your powerfactor be one of those things considering it was KNOWN it was going to be measured? Do you believe that there should be a certain level of preparedness that goes into going to a championship level match?

Reloading is not required. There is factory ammo produced that will make power factor out of every gun on the production list - even the G26. I have a case of Speer Gold Dot +P if I ever want to make sure I make it. Not every gun is on the production list - not every factory ammo is going to make power factor out of the ones that are. It's not something we should need to worry about... a shooter that is beyond new and LEARNING the sport should.

I'm not saying we shouldn't allow NEW people to shoot majors - i'm talking "Hey, this is my first match and I'm shooting a major!!" - I love hearing that - and generally, I'm GREAT with it - why? 1. I'm not competing with them. Not that they can't out shoot me! They might - but they are almost guaranteed to be U's. 2. They get to see the match the way it is SUPPOSED to be run - well, lest they should. Will it suck for them to subminor - sure, but it's also going to learn them something immediately. But someone that's looking to actually be competitive in class at a major - they should know what their equipment does. It's part of the sport.

[bbbean]

That being said, were they prepared? There's certain things you do - make sure the gun can hit the target, clean it - take a set of spare parts, tools, backup gun. Take your clothes - shouldn't checking your powerfactor be one of those things considering it was KNOWN it was going to be measured? Do you believe that there should be a certain level of preparedness that goes into going to a championship level match?

+1

I think it's great that a rank beginner can walk up and shoot a major match, but it is still a **major match**. There's plenty of leeway in level I matches for shooters who have non-standard equipment, aren't 100% familiar with the rules, or who don't know whether their ammo makes PF. At least 1/2 the guys I shoot against at our local clubs don't even own a chrono. That's fine when the match is 10 or 20 guys just shooting for something to do on Saturday morning. Who really cares if the 7th place production shooter had a PF of 120? But if you're going to pay $100-300, travel long distances, and compete against the best shooters in your state/area/country, you really should take the time to be sure your gun, gear, ammo, etc meet spec. if you don't do that, you shouldn't be bothered too much if you end up going minor or shooting production for no score. After all, being prepared is part of being competitive.

All that said, it wouldn't be too much skin off my nose if they lowered the minor PF to whatever a slow barrel runs with powder puff commercial ammo. I suspect that going too much lower starts to get into a tradeoff between accuracy, reliability, and recoil, and I'm not convinced that a 115 PF load would necessarily be preferable to a 125 or 135.

BB

[aztecdriver]

All that said, it wouldn't be too much skin off my nose if they lowered the minor PF to whatever a slow barrel runs with powder puff commercial ammo. I suspect that going too much lower starts to get into a tradeoff between accuracy, reliability, and recoil, and I'm not convinced that a 115 PF load would necessarily be preferable to a 125 or 135.

BB

Ehhh... I can tell you - working up my recent recipe - I had several rounds in the 115-120 area (i started way light) and it was SUPER dreamy to shoot. I thought - WOW this is really nice - then I hit the PF key, entered the weight and 117 popped up... and I thought - that's why PF is 125. It does make a difference, least wise, in my G34 it does...

[Flexmoney]

I am curious as to what brand of factory ammo it was...for information purposes?

[P.E. Kelley]

Let's lower the PF and then ammunition manufacturers could lower their loads again and then in turn we can and they can and...oh what the heck

let's just shoot 22's!

Kids, if your going to play in the BIG leagues then the onus is on YOU to know the rules AND comply.

NO sport should pander to the lowest common denominator. "Learn the ropes" in the farm leagues (local L1 matches) and

then by all means please join the ranks at a Major Match.

We should strive to bring our new shooters UP and INTO the game!

Patrick

[alpha-charlie]

Kids, if your going to play in the BIG leagues then the onus is on YOU to know the rules AND comply.

NO sport should pander to the lowest common denominator. "Learn the ropes" in the farm leagues (local L1 matches) and

then by all means please join the ranks at a Major Match.

Patrick

+1

A Level II is a step up. It's more serious than the local weekend match and alot more planning goes into it. The Ohio match was in the works for well over a year I believe and alot of time, money, and sponsorship went into it. There were alot of free prizes and guns given away. If you're going to compete at that type of match you've got to be prepared. In doing that, you've got to know that your ammo is legal. If not, it's a hard lesson learned.

Now, if the majority of factory ammo starts to not make power factor out of the majority of approved guns, then changing the rule could be discussed. But there is a ton of factory ammo to choose from to find what will work out of the gun you have. Going to the store and buying 300 rounds of whatever you normally shoot to use at a Level II match, and assuming it's going to make PF, is not being prepared for that type of match. If those shooters always shoot that type of factory ammo and have chrono'd it before, and got burned that day, well.....that's just the nature of the beast I guess.

Edited May 31, 2011 by alpha-charlie

[MoNsTeR]

I feel bad for these folks but at a Level 2 match I think we can reasonably expect a greater degree of preparation.

[IL-SIG]

I have first-hand knowledge of this situation. During the Double-Up in Ohio matches, on the first day (Sat) I went sub-minor with factory ammo (Remington). I don't recall the exact PF, but it was certainly under 125. That night, I went out and traveled to about 4 different places trying to find enough Blazer for the next day's competition, which I shot and made minor. My response was this; I ordered 3k rounds of Atlanta Arms 147gr 9mm for the remainder of the season. During the off season, I purchased (from BE) a new 550B and started reloading my own ammo in major (shooting Limited now).

As for possible responses; I could have gotten mad and quit the game, blame my failure on a stupid rule that really wouldn't have made much difference in my overall shooting, and sold all my equipment. Rather, I learned a valuable lesson. Be accountable to the rules of the game. You can ask anyone on my squad that day...while disappointed, I never got mad at the rules or the people running the chrono. I certainly wasn't happy with my factory ammo and consequently made a change. It wasn't that fault of the chrono or the rules. The shooter, in this case me, is responsible for compliance with the long-established requirements to shoot in our sport, including power factor!

Don't change any PF rules. If a person plays the game, they must understand the rules - just like in football, golf, or car racing. What would happen if someone who wanted to show up and shoot Production did so with a out-of-the-box 1911. Guess what, they wouldn't get to shoot Production - they would learn a lesson. Life is all about lessons. Some cost you the opportunity to shoot for score in a USPSA competition. How you handle those lessons says something about your character as a person. Making excuses and changing the rules because some new people aren't compliant is not the way to make our sport better. Fair and consistent application of well established and published rules is the way to keep the integrity of our sport!!

Thank you and I will step down from my soap box now

[ima45dv8]

Thank you and I will step down from my soap box now

Keep talking like that and you can stay up there as long as you want.

[beltjones]

Let's not think for a moment that it's the new guys shooting factory ammo that would benefit the most from lowering the PF for minor.

What would really happen is that most new guys would show up shooting WWB or something coming in at 135, and the experienced guys who reload would show up with ammo tailored to be a hair above the minimum. This would put new guys at even more of a disadvantage than they already are.

Leave things as they are. Afterall, it's not the notion that new shooters are instantly competitive that gets people involved in the first place; rather, it's the notion that by getting involved they will get a lot better, a lot faster than they would otherwise. We need to get the word out about how fun this sport is, and how much better of a shooter it will make people, and not lower any standard toward any kind of common denominator.

[IL-SIG]

Thank you and I will step down from my soap box now

Keep talking like that and you can stay up there as long as you want.

Thank you!

[ima45dv8]

Afterall, it's not the notion that new shooters are instantly competitive that gets people involved in the first place; rather, it's the notion that by getting involved they will get a lot better, a lot faster than they would otherwise. We need to get the word out about how fun this sport is, and how much better of a shooter it will make people.....

That's post-of-the-day material.

[No.343]

If we lower the pf then we should be able to shoot 380 and 32s. Just kidding, lets not change a thing.

[bluenite]

Afterall, it's not the notion that new shooters are instantly competitive that gets people involved in the first place; rather, it's the notion that by getting involved they will get a lot better, a lot faster than they would otherwise. We need to get the word out about how fun this sport is, and how much better of a shooter it will make people.....

That pretty much sums up why I got involved,

But I also wanted to feel safer and more confident when I carry.

I still have a lot to learn, but now carrying seems natural.

I was surprised when I came back to USPSA and found major PF dropped (I assume that was a result of the 40W&W).

Leonard

[Rangertim]

I am curious as to what brand of factory ammo it was...for information purposes?

I know one guy on my squad that took all 6 rounds shot and the 7th weighed was shooting Federal. The Federal you can buy at Walmart for $10.47 a box. Not sure about the others.

And I agree that we shouldn't change a thing. I just thought it would be an interesting point of discussion, and so it has been!

Edited June 1, 2011 by Rangertim

[GForceLizard]

It's reasonable to ask anyone going to higher level matches to be prepared.

I've chrono'ed PMC Bronze 115gr @ 130.6PF, S&B 124gr @ 135.3PF, Federal Am Eagle 115gr @ 138.5PF, Blazer Brass 124gr @ 140.6PF and Speer Lawman 147gr @ 148.3PF. All from a Glock 17 with the factory barrel. There are lots of factory choices that work.

[Louis Walker]

I was around 140PF with Federal Premium 115gr at the 2011 Ohio State Sectional using a Glock 34.

I was around 134PF with Winchester Value Box 115gr at the 2011 Battle in the Bluegrass using a Glock 17.

I have yet to miss minor power factor using factory ammo. Right now, the Federal Premium is the cheapest brass cased ammo I can regularly find ($10.47 per 50).

[Pezco]

Well, as one of the Chrono guys at the Ohio Sectional I can tell you we were sad for the 3 people who went sub-minor at the match. From my prior experiences as "a chrono guy", the people shooting Remington UMC ammo alway have problems. Add a short barrel gun and several other brands can be added to the list.

My 2 cents is along the lines of Aztecdriver's, a person should be prepared for the level of match they plan to shoot. I went minor my first Level II because I didn't have a chrono (I was shooting limited with a Glock 35).

Ranger - The rules are there to make sure everyone, everywhere has the same playing field. The new folks that like the Level I matches and plan to shoot a Level II or III match should get their gun/ammo combo checked before the match, they owe it to themselves.

[Poppa Bear]

Pezco, did you see any correlation between barrel length and PF across various factory loads. Like WWB/ UMC/ Federal out of a 4" averaged about xx, 5" averaged about xx and 6" averaged xxx. It would be nice to see who makes PF out of the shorter barrels consistently just so it can be passed on to those who do not reload themselves.

Judging by some of the earlier posts making minor out of something like a G34 or a G17 does not seem to be the problem. It is the 4.25" barrels and less that seem to have the problems.

Edited June 3, 2011 by Poppa Bear

[gixxerjunky]

I hope federal makes PF out of my shadow Tom. I just picked up 500 rounds of it for double tap.

[Pezco]

I didn't pay that much attention to it over the course of 3 days and only 3 not making minor. I was more interested in the folks shooting 185 PF in production (Glock 21SF and G35)!

[West Texas Granny]

So let me get this right. After spending huge sums just to get to a point where I can play I now have to start reloading which means spending more money because I can no longer depend on factory ammo to be what it should be. As far as changing, every thing changes if it expects to survive in the future. Now from my vantage point I can see those level 2 and level 3 matches getting thinner and thinner in the future as everything becomes entangled in rules and expensive equipment. All I can say is if noting changes you will see another organization form to get back to the roots of it being fun and not another job.. As for myself its USPSA renewal time and I don't think I will be renewing. Frankly its becoming more of a job than a way to relax and have fun.

[beltjones]

So let me get this right. After spending huge sums just to get to a point where I can play I now have to start reloading which means spending more money because I can no longer depend on factory ammo to be what it should be. As far as changing, every thing changes if it expects to survive in the future. Now from my vantage point I can see those level 2 and level 3 matches getting thinner and thinner in the future as everything becomes entangled in rules and expensive equipment. All I can say is if noting changes you will see another organization form to get back to the roots of it being fun and not another job.. As for myself its USPSA renewal time and I don't think I will be renewing. Frankly its becoming more of a job than a way to relax and have fun.

I really don't get why, under the current rules, you think you have to reload to be competitive. WWB is one of the cheapest factory ammos and it makes Minor out of virtually any gun someone might bring to a match.

At the current minor PF you do not have to reload to be competitive in Production. Period. However, that might change if they lowered the PF floor.

If they were to lower the PF, the only people it would benefit would be the guys who do reload, because then they could tailor their load to be even lighter. The rest of us would have to continue shooting our factory loads, which would be comparatively even hotter than the ammo of the reloaders.

As a Production shooter, I agree that there are a lot of rules and rulings that make zero sense and that add nothing but frustration. However, minor PF is not one of them.

[ima45dv8]

So let me get this right. After spending huge sums just to get to a point where I can play I now have to start reloading which means spending more money because I can no longer depend on factory ammo to be what it should be.

That all depends on your expectations of factory ammo. If you expect all factory ammunition to make Minor PF out of all guns, well, you just might find yourself suffering a period of significant disappointment. That would be like expecting all brands of gasoline to make the same mileage in all cars.

As far as changing, every thing changes if it expects to survive in the future. Now from my vantage point I can see those level 2 and level 3 matches getting thinner and thinner in the future as everything becomes entangled in rules and expensive equipment.

Yeah, those Level II and III matches are just too cumbersome. Some would say the way they expect people to follow the published rules is just over the top.

All I can say is if noting changes you will see another organization form to get back to the roots of it being fun and not another job.. As for myself its USPSA renewal time and I don't think I will be renewing. Frankly its becoming more of a job than a way to relax and have fun.

I regret hearing that. Though you seem a bit on the outside at times, at least you're interested.

I wish you would consider that any sports organization has rules, and can reasonably expect them to be followed. Maybe try to think of it like this --- it doesn't matter what rules we all play by as long as we all play the same rules. Dig in, play as dictated, and let the results fall where they will.