kdj Posted April 8, 2004 Share Posted April 8, 2004 I've been planning to get a new open gun built and have been wondering what I want. I thought I liked the idea of a a short gun but I had no empirical evidence to back up this thinking. Now I do! I was shooting yesterday with Charlie Granger of GunTriks (http://members.aol.com/guntriks) and had fired a few hundred rounds through my open gun that has been tweaked and mutilated until it is just the way I want it. This is a full length gun with a long compensator, not particularly heavy but definitely long. It's very soft shooting and, with a 170 load, the dot stays pretty much in the A zone at 10 yds. I'd been shooting one and two shot drills on a single target at 10 yds and my times were averaging around 1.25 to 1.3 consistantly. We were also shooting a 3 target drill with long transitions and a no shoot, out to about 20 yds. My times for this were around 3.6. Charlie shoots a short gun, and let me shoot it to compare. The weights of the guns are close to the same since he has a lot of tungsten in his gun. So the differences were: not my gun (so doesn't feel right: different thumb placement, different trigger, ...), smaller dot (much harder for me to find) and shorter. I'd expect to be slower just based on unfamiliarity. My draw times were in the 1.1 to 1.15 range. My averages on the transition were 3. This comes to about a 20% improvement, with an unfamiliar gun. I swapped back, using the same ammo, a few times to make sure everything (focus, intensity, ...) were the same in both runs, and there really was the consistant difference. The chrono showed a difference of around 5 on the power factor and past experience says that's not enough to make a noticable difference for me. I know there are many variables here and this is not a double blind controlled experiment but feeling the difference and observing the results suprized me and it's convincing enough for me. I'm now certain that a short gun is the way to go, and no longer believe the assertions that if you are not a GM, you should go with a 5" gun Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted April 8, 2004 Share Posted April 8, 2004 Just a thought, but sometimes I shoot better with an unfamiliar pistol in practice. Having something new or different can change your focus level, and that impacts your shooting more than gear. BE addresses this a in his book as the "trick" of the day. Short, long, heavy, light, I think it been proven they can all do the job better than we can. If you believe in it then do it if you can afford it, just keep in mind what may work for you is all that really matters. If turning your C-more upside down to get the dot closer to the bore is he answer (I've seen it more than once) then by all means go for it. 'Cause in the end it all comes down to the shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdj Posted April 8, 2004 Author Share Posted April 8, 2004 Good point. I'm aware of the "trick of the day" kind of effect, which is why I repeated the experiment a number of times to try and balance this out. I'm sure I didn't succeed 100% but it was factored in. I'm a pretty keen observer of my own kinesthetics (more than 35 years of Aikido training and teaching has some effect :-)) and it is clearly the case that I can index the gun faster when it has less "angular momentum". I'd suspected this was the case since I've observed a similar situation with sword practice but it was nice to get clear indication from an impartial observer (timers are so objective :-)). So, for me, it really was shorter that mattered more than different and I can prove that by shooting other different guns much more slowly than my own Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Larry Cazes Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 Kevin, I believe ya! Please now sell me your SSSLLLOOOWWW 5" open gun. Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdj Posted April 9, 2004 Author Share Posted April 9, 2004 Kevin, I believe ya! Please now sell me your SSSLLLOOOWWW 5" open gun. I have to get a short one built first ... and there's already a line Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oddjob Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 Charlie was shooting??? He's supposed to be wrenching on my 11-87!! Seriously.....I was thinking about the shorty as well. Three "pro" shooters advised against the shorty. I remember years back it was a thing to do....then it was back to the regular length slide and now its back to the shorty. Kinda a fad thing was what was relayed to me. I will admit I've fired several shorties and liked it. Anyway...........good luck.....and tell Charlie to start back on my 11-87. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdj Posted April 9, 2004 Author Share Posted April 9, 2004 Charlie was shooting??? He's supposed to be wrenching on my 11-87!! He was watching me shoot and must have been mentally working on your project, since watching me shoot involves long gaps bewteen shots and there's plenty of time to do other things I know people experimented with shorties years back but the 165 (or 160 if you live in the rest of the world) PF together with better compensator design seems to make them a lot more interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
short_round Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 The last shorty I tried was a lot of work. The gun really wanted to get away from me. I was using a neutral grip at the time and I had to time the gun to get the dot back. The longer open guns I have shot just came back on their own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bulm5 Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 way too violent fro me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdj Posted April 9, 2004 Author Share Posted April 9, 2004 Hmm ... I didn't notice the short gun as being particularly violent. Maybe it depends on how many hybrid holes etc? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtypool40 Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 I have had the same experience with Limited guns. A long heavy I shot for four years vs. my new short light. Draw, bill drills, plates and overall improvement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bulm5 Posted April 9, 2004 Share Posted April 9, 2004 Hmm ... I didn't notice the short gun as being particularly violent. Maybe it depends on how many hybrid holes etc? I guess its a personal preference. I am not an open shooter but when I had a opportunity to test both guns I found that the shorter guns had to much muzzle blast. I had to check my fillings if they were still intact. The hybrid may have been the culprit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Scientist Posted April 10, 2004 Share Posted April 10, 2004 Get something and stick with it and shoot the &^(*% out of it improvment will follow. Johnnie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdj Posted April 10, 2004 Author Share Posted April 10, 2004 Get something and stick with it and shoot the &^(*% out of it improvment will follow. Actually, I don't agree with this philosophy as stated - I think it much better to get the optimal something and then shoot the &^(*% out of it In general, people will suggest that practice counts for more than the tool, and I do agree with that, but having been pretty successful in a wide range of activities, I'm also convinced that getting perfect equipment (or the best approximation one can make to it) removes the waste of having to learn to deal with equipment that is not ideal. The only reason to not get the ideal equipment in any game is because it's out of reach, otherwise go for the best you can find and then learn to work with that. I shall endeavor to follow the latter part of the advice though YMMV, of course Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted April 10, 2004 Share Posted April 10, 2004 Since YMMV...and to play devil's advocate... I think the more challenging the equipment...the more important it is for the shooter to progress in the skill department. If I shoot one gun better/faster than another...I want to know why. And, I want to learn the techniques that I need to that will allow me to shoot them both to the same level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bulm5 Posted April 10, 2004 Share Posted April 10, 2004 Get something and stick with it and shoot the &^(*% out of it improvment will follow. Johnnie yup, Eric G. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdj Posted April 10, 2004 Author Share Posted April 10, 2004 Since YMMV...and to play devil's advocate...I think the more challenging the equipment...the more important it is for the shooter to progress in the skill department. In the same spirit What you say is true if there is a direct correlation between the skills learned to overcome the equipment and those necessary to optimize the use of the best equipment. On the other hand, if those specific skills are irrelevant to the end goal, then the time spent practicing those could have been devoted to mastering the skills you do eventually use. As an exagerated example, everyone would agree that driving a manual transmission will make you a better driver overall (I think ... I should know better than to say every one ) but I would argue that if your aim is to to race in a class that only allows automatic transmissions, then the time spent learning to master the clutch would have been better spent on something like learning throttle and brake use, no? And I thought I was the one playing Devil's advocate I am (I hope obviously) backing myself into a corner that appears more dogmatic than I really feel. OK, I'll stop arguing and go shoot now Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RH45 Posted April 12, 2004 Share Posted April 12, 2004 I always said I would never shoot an open gun, but, due to failing eyesight, I bought a used, full size open gun, last summer. Altough my accuracy has improved, for me, it is really awkward, and slow to get out of the holster, and my draw times have really sucked. Then, after reading the porn, on this website, I ordered a new shorty. It came in last week. I took it out to the range, and am really impressed!! I think it recoils LESS than my full-sized, the draw times are coming back down, and the target transitions are faster. I thought I'd keep the full-sized, for a back-up, but, I may not, because they are two completely different animals. I think I really like the shorty!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve223 Posted April 12, 2004 Share Posted April 12, 2004 I have been shooting a shorty for the last month or so and i really like it it balances more like my Limited gun and my transitions are much faster. I started with N350 and it was pretty viloent to shoot. I have since switched to 3N38 and it shoots much flater & softer. I think the dot moves a little more with the short gun but not enough to be an annoyence. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L9X25 Posted April 15, 2004 Share Posted April 15, 2004 Has anybody been able to get a feel for match results with the new shorty as compared to a long/heavy gun yet? I have experienced a dilemma where I enjoy shooting the shorter & lighter gun more but my match results are usually better with the longer heavier gun. The biggest difference is that, when calling my hits, I usually have better hits than I visualize with the heavy gun and often have worse hits than visualized with the light gun. This is not amazing since the short/light gun moves faster (good and bad) and moves more. I notice that clean triggering is more critical with the short gun as the light weight amplifies any flaws in your triggering and the heavy gun dampens it. Leo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtypool40 Posted April 15, 2004 Share Posted April 15, 2004 all those observations seem to make sense to me. Train a purer trigger finger and you'll be good to go. Hashed and rehashed, but it really is the INDIAN not the ARROW, just find what works for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted April 15, 2004 Share Posted April 15, 2004 I have noticed an increase in difficulty-of-precise-shot-calling with the shorty. Might have something to do with me looking one way and shooting the other-- the lighter gun gets off target faster. It takes more precision to get the shorty working well for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L9X25 Posted April 15, 2004 Share Posted April 15, 2004 Shred, That is exactly my feeling ... I will know that I shot a weak C or a strong D on a target. With the heavy gun it will be a C and with the Light gun it might be a Miss! It add a lot more drama to scoring my targets after a stage. With the heavy gun I can usually guess at how many points I was down after a run. I thought it might be an awareness problem but it has not improved much beyond making me more pessimistic about my ability to call shots. I am bringing the heavy gun out this weekend (after a long absence) to see how it feels and how well I am tracking the dot. Leo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted April 15, 2004 Share Posted April 15, 2004 I found I had to use more overtravel in my trigger than I did before. The trigger hitting the OT stop upset the gun more with the lighter gun. I "learned" to shoot Open with the shorty though. IMO, the shorty's require more finesse than heaver guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric nielsen Posted April 15, 2004 Share Posted April 15, 2004 Everything that Leo mentioned was also the opinion of Max and Travis on their forum's discussion of shorty guns. TGO doesn't like them either. Have to guess those 3 guys gave the shorty a thorough try-out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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