Is IDPA training?

[Billf]

I have now shot 2 IDPA matches. I noticed that a couple of the SO's seemed to really stress to new shooters that these matches are training. Is this a normal attitude in the clubs you guys shoot at?

Do any of your IDPA clubs have websites? Care to share any of the really cool ones?

[Ron Ankeny]

Our club treats IDPA as a game, because that's what it is. The nearby Worland, WY Police Department has adopted the IDPA classifier for training purposes so to them it is training.

I have been working a little with our local Game and Fish firearms trainer and we set up several IPSC courses last month to introduce the folks to IPSC. This spring we will introduce the guys and gals to IDPA. Some of the peace officers approach IPSC and IDPA as shooting sports, others as training, and still others as both.

This board is really geared to gun handling and shooting skills and we all more or less agree not to go down the defensive shooting road. But, since you asked, to me there are three componets to defensive shooting. Those are tactics, shooting skill, and mind set. If you really want to master the shooting skills get into IPSC. Your average B class shooter is one hell of a gunslinger out in the real world when it comes to shooting skill. In theory, IDPA puts the emphasis on both tactics and shooting skill (if you subscribe to their tactics). As for mind set, it seems to me that the shooters who, for whatever reason, are concerned with CCW, street survival, and so on are migrating toward IDPA. That probably explains the attitude that you are experiencing, but that's just a guess.

[sfinney]

Any type of shooting is training in gun handling.....

But while IDPA is more "tactically" oriented than USPSA, they are both games.

If you want tactics training, attend a course taught by a professional.

If you want to compete with others and be scored against rules in a book (that seems to get thicker every year!) , with "winners" announced, you are playing a game.

[Billf]

I was just wondering if all IDPA clubs were like the one I have participated with here. I have to drive 400 miles to shoot a IPSC match, and these guys just got IDPA started here 37 miles away. I really like the guys, and have a great time shooting IDPA, but I treat it and shoot it as a game. I get the feeling they dislike that. I guess I'll just have to pretend that it is serious business.

[gm iprod]

If there are winners and losers then its a game, as long as everybody lives and gets to shake hands at the end. Some people take sport far far far to seriously. If you are enjoying yourself, go for it.

Remember smile, even when the other fella is winning.

[Bill Schwab]

Billf,

You'll find the SO's view of IDPA different from place to place.  At one range they'll view it as a game, and not be so harsh with enforcing the rules verbatim, then you'll shoot IPDA somewhere else and the SO will be hard on you because he feels you're training for a real world shootout.  It all depends on where you shoot.

Bill

[kellyn]

I don't shoot a lot of IDPA so take this with a grain of salt.  I consider all forms of shooting to be "training," be it IPSC, IDPA, highpower, skeet, or even benchrest.  Fighter pilots such as Joe Foss considered skeet to be excellent traing for air to air combat.

One thing that I find silly about IDPA is that IDPA really tries to consider itself somehow above the other shooting sports as "real" combat training.  I just shot the Arizona IDPA state championship and was once again exposed to the nuances of IDPA rules.  I saw more gamesmanship at this match than I did at Area 2 Desert Classic  and the USPSA 3 Gun Nationals combined.  

To me, many of the IDPA rules seem absolutely silly and I would never follow them in any sort of realistic combat scenario.  To wit (sorry, that's the lawyer in me!):

1)  Low cover requires a knee to be placed on the ground.  That's stupid.  As long as the shooter is behind cover, he should be good to go.  Why is kneeling somehow better than squatting?

2)  Magazine changes must be behind cover.  That's silly as well.  I saw plenty of people (including myself) running to cover and they could not perform a mag change until they got behind cover.  So here I am, waiting 2-3 seconds with an empty gun running to get to cover before I can perform a mag change that I could have completed WELL before I ever got to the cover in the first place.

3) Mag changes must be tactical or done from slide-lock.  I saw plenty of shooters firing extra shots so they could do slide-lock reloads instead of tactical relaods. I did this myself once until I said to myself that this is stupid, I'm not going to fire extra shots just so I can do a faster reload.  From then on, I did slower tactical mag changes, TO MY DETRIMENT.  This is an untenable rule and leads to a lot of "cheating" that really can't be penalized.

4) mag changes etc. must be done completely behind cover.  This rule sent a couple of military and police types that I was shooting with into orbit.  People would be assessed penalties if they did not go completely behind cover while they were manipulating their guns.  When you are completely behind cover, you have no idea what your opponents are doing.  You can't see them. In a real fight, an opponent could walk right up to you and blast you and you would have no idea what he was doing.

IMHO, IDPA is probably less training for the real world than IPSC.  In IDPA shooting you primarily think about following rules and course descriptions.  In IPSC, you think about hitting targets fast.  Neither provides the ultimate in combat training but I'd rather go up against an IDPA master rather than an IPSC A class shooter any day.  Sorry for the rant but the "real practical shooting sport" seems not so real.    

[TGO]

Go on with your bad self Kelly! Much of what you say is true, IDPA like any shooting game has rules for reasons other than duplicating a tactical situation. You are observant in that IDPA causes the shooter to focus more on avoiding penalties than hitting the targets than does IPSC. But as I get older I want the score to based on other than shooting ability! That way I can out fox you Silly Tactical Reload Martyrs. Take that!

Rob

[Billf]

TGO,

Your a funny guy, I use to love to watch you shoot. haven't had a chance since 99 and somehow I doubt your age has effected your shooting ability very much. I see in some of the posts, that there are still quite a few young bucks looking to tango with the Great One, and the great one puts them in their place..... most of the time.

Kellyn

I agree with most of what you said. But I disagree with a match being training. I look at a match as kinda like a quiz or test to see if I really have been training. A good match  makes my weak points stick out like a sore thumb. Plus sometimes I just want to make noise and see dust fly cant call that training, well ok, training in having fun. Anyway I practice/train mostly in gravel pits, I have my own props, movers and can even set up the whole steel challange. In the gravel pits I am the TGO, I always win. As I said 400 miles to an IPSC match sucks, so shooting IDPA is welcomed.

One thing I think is a shame in IDPA is they set the stage as not to advance or improve on tactics. They seem to be more defensive mindset yet refuse to accept a better way even after proving that a certain tactic is deadly to the user. Some of them seem to want to die. Thank God most of the bad guys are really pretty stupid.

IPSC has come a long way since I started in 86. It has allowed for experimentation and better ways of doing things. I am better for it, my equipment is better for it. Thanks to guys like TGO, BE just to name 2.

I still enjoy the company of shooters and like many here have said, IDPA is a game. I treat it as such. But I will, from now on, pretent to be serious.......It seems to make the others happy that way. By the way, I think what pissed a couple of them off was while I was removing my carry weapon and holstering my match weapon (under a couple of SO's supervision). I made the comment that this is the first time that my match gun was inferior to my carry gun... Like TGO said "out fox them" at their own game.

Bill

Shooters of all makes and modles are the coolest humans of the race.

[j1b]

Kelly

I see your points - and I agree to a point.

As you know I used to be 99.99% IPSC - and converting to IDPA proved to be a challenge. I got strung up and hung as a result of many of the rules. However now I really don't think about it as much. I just shoot the stages and am familiar enough with the game that the rules don't much get in the way.

As for gaming - it most definitly exists in IDPA. But I think that if you do what's right - odds are the people doing things right (like yourself) are going to come out on top.

As for using IDPA as training??? Anytime you're on the clock and under pressure I would think you would improve your chances in "alternate" stressful situations. But I don't approach IDPA any different than IPSC. It's the game we have here - and I want to win every chance I get.

Just my opinion.

JB

[Billf]

Jb,

I see your guys point as to training. I guess I look at matches different in that i shoot so much by myself that when I go to a match it is all fun anymore, kinda like the guy who has been locked up. Maybe because of the lack of competition the past several years I have put myself at a disadvantge. But Im not sure as when I do get to shoot with a couple of GMs that come up regularly they really have to work for the win. Sure wish you would move back up and teach me a few things. Thanks guys for allowing me to speak.

Bill

[kellyn]

Rob, I like when Brian gives me nicknames like "Rifle Master."  That's simple and easy.  It makes me feel goood.  With you, I'm going to end up with a nickname like "warm Guinness drinking, gunmalfunctioning, silly, tactical reloading, marytr (who still shoots major by the way).  That's a lot to remember.

BillF, I really don't want to tango with TGO.  I just want to take him down in a pistol match (we all know I can spank him with a rifle).  He is too tall and furry to tango with :-)  

 

[TGO]

Furry maybe but too tall!

[Steve Moneypenny]

LMAO. guess kelly doesn't like to look up to his dance partners!

as for training, being a martial artist ( no, not some tactical freak at an IDPA match, i study "martial arts" ex. karate, tae kwon do, aikido, kendo... the list goes on)

after incorporating firearms into my skills i have noticed after competiing in USPSA and IDPA for 2 years that everything is much smoother and faster still being "tactically correct" but when i do a force on force exercise, i tend to come out on top of those less experience shoters.

so training for real life, no, but training to gain gunhandling experience, smoothness yet, but i prefer to call that practice.

Kellyn,TGO still laughing!

[talon]

Kelly I do not want to disagree with the flavor of your post but the rule book I have does not agree with parts of your post.

I.E. 4)  Mag changes must be done completely behind cover.  This isnt what my rule books says so were the RO's making you do it anyway ?

2)  My understanding is that you can slide-lock reload anytime you need to except that you can't advance with an empty gun.  Was the "get to cover" part of the COF ?

Also IMHO kneeling isnt better than squatting its just easier to judge if the contestant did it or not.  At least thats what the local RO's tell me.

[Billf]

My real problem with calling it training is that the new shooters are being mislead. Many only have done the Concealed permit course (which I call ground zero). They have no clue as to shooting skills and or tactics, let alone mindset. We have these self-proclaimed experts tell these new people that IPSC will get you killed (I cannot count on my fingers how many times I have heard that in the two matches I shot). Now being a hard core IPSC shooter (unfortunately I don’t get the shooting opportunities most of you have) I get offended by these remarks, however knowing that this is a place to shoot with fellow shooters (all great people to be around) I do not get in arguments but just go with the flow. What I do attempt to do is ask lots of questions and every once in a while a remark, but not down grading or any of that. I don’t want to get into tactical arguments, I just want to have fun. It is irritating to see a new shooter being fed stuff that if he/she got into a lethal confrontation tomorrow they would be stacking the odds up against themselves by taking the IDPA stuff serious. Have any of you noticed this kinda thing going on in your IDPA clubs? If so do you  say anything ?

Last month we shot the classifier, I shot it with a stock out of the box EAA .45, with a bianchi thumb break holster and two magazine pouches that held the mags in so tight I almost gave my self a wedgie pulling the dang things out, so you know about my inferior match gun comment that I quoted earlier.

Many of the guys there were shooting high dollar les Baer .45s and others Glocks. Now I could not figure out where these comments I keep hearing that IDPA is lower cost then IPSC because they are not  in the equipment race...... Anyway my total cost of the gear I was wearing did not exceed 500 bucks.

Now, I am a martial artist (at least I try to be), I am also a gamesmen (again I try to be) that is why I love IPSC. I know what it takes to survive a lethal confrontation. I did not get in to any arguments over shooting skills or shooting techniques, I just showed them. I shot the classifier in 91 sec and change (not one of the otheres even came close). They say they are going to have another classifier on April 13 . I dug out some of my old IPSC stuff. EAA limited .40 which I hear is legal in EDP. I also dug out a tactical hellweg holster and mag pouches. Today I worked up some really soft shooting loads at 140 PF. I also am studying the rules and the classifier and I know I will be shaving mega time off this next get go.

So with this all said, would I be doing the new shooters injustice by keeping my mouth shut? What would you do, or what have any of you done? If I attempt to shoot a course with different point of view (tactic) I will get called  on FTDR, or worse told I'm cheating. I want to just have fun playing another game so I’ll probably just end up keeping my mouth shut. Thanks for listening.

Bill

[Jake Di Vita]

In the sense of real life training for things that should happen, I don't really see it as accurate training for a few reasons.

One: Whenever you are told to face uprange at the beginning of a stage, most stages that I have done specify that you must turn to your right, if you are right-handed.  This is inherently inaccurate because you should never present you gun to a person trying to committ a crime.

Two: If there are more than two targets, you should never "double tap" one before shooting the other at all.  The more realistic thing to do would be to shoot each one once then go back if you had to.

Three: Obviously limiting you to 10 round mags is not all that realistic.  Although I understand why they do it for competition, if I actually had a CCW, I would definetely be carrying high caps.

Now with saying all this, I do still believe IDPA or IPSC could be used as a type of training.  It teaches you everything you need to know about your gun.  I know when I first started shooting about a year ago, I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn.  In other words, someone with a lot of competition and practice under their belts will stand a much better chance than someone without.

Jake

[TGO]

I recently ran a class of military shooters, and among other things, ran them through the IDPA classifier, Participated in a local steel match and shot The Arizona State IDPA Championships! Let me share with you some interesting observations. They get more wound up and nervous in a match than they do in combat! Why? Because they have time to think about it and get tense! I respect these guys opinion more than ANY so called tactician out there who is sure he knows the tricks to surviving an armed confrontation. These guys have been doing that a bunch lately and think IDPA and IPSC shooting both offer much to the testing phase of ones ability. On the other hand, they to a man do not agree with the philosophies that either is inherently more practical. All the little things like which way do you turn or where you do the load is all something that we can discuss all day on the range, but on the battlefield, men do things that may not be considered practical or tactical and live because they did it fast, accurately and decisively. On the other hand, there are those who did it "right" by some folks judgement and still lost. We all have our ideas of how it should be done, and the rules of the existing games are just that, some ones ideas. To say going to any kind of shooting event will teach you technique that will get you killed is idiotic and irresponsible. Guys, it is cool to have your own plan but do not try to pass it off as gospel to the rest of us. A discussion of technique and philosophy seldom ends with agreement, but that does not make the other guy wrong or stupid. These are just games designed to test your abilities in a very controlled and pre-planned arena. Who wins is your best shot, not your most likely survivor. That can not be tested under the clock. However, those that master executing under the timer are probably more likely to do well in a pressure situation, than someone who chokes, misses or gets procedural penalties. This is a point the boys all agree on, thus they train hard and test themselves in the arena of competition to see what they know and whether they can do it.  

Rob

[Steve Moneypenny]

TGO, very well put, "arm chair" commando's try to run the sport to their liking most of the time

TIS. as for the shoot one round on each, then go back, it has been proven faster for a controled pair placed on each target. there are lots of things to worry about here, including but not limited to the use of cover. but i very much agree with your final point.

you can use different tactics, just as long as they are not to gain an unfair advantage.

bottom line, its a game.

[Steve H]

I will second what Rob said!  I have a few guys that I work with who not only have shot and killed badguys in the line of duty, they did so after being shot first!  So lets have a match where you take a round in the chest from..........say a 9mm (we all know they are no good for killing people anyway, just ask the folks at Gunsite, just kidding) and then shoot a course of fire.  That would be realistic.  All these guys said that the IPSC/Tuesday night steel matches and any other action pistol match helped them with their incident.  On had just started shooting some steel matches a few months prior to his shooting, and he told me, on the ambulance ride to the hospital, that he saw his sights each time he fired a round into the bad guy!   You can bet your ass he continues to shoot in competiton.  

I won't go into mindset...........a whole different topic

Later

(Edited by Steve H at 2:27 pm on April 1, 2002)

[EricW]

Ya know, the world is what you make of it.  This whole "training/tactics" stink reminds me of college, where everyone bitched and moaned about having to take this course or that because they were NEVER going to use it in their job in the "real world."  (I'm still trying to find this mythical "real world" by the way.)  But, ya know what, I've used something from every class I've ever taken.  Religion, Philosophy, Mathematics, Language, you name it. I've been able to find something of value in every course.  Maybe not in the straightforward, literal sense, but if one had the right mindset, one could find nuggets worth taking.  The students who lived the dogma of "only things that pertain directly to my discipline are worth a damn" never found the value.  It was a shame.  It really stunted their growth as people.

It's the same thing with shooting games.  There's value there if you want to find it.  If you want to live a life dominated by some arbitrary, mindless dogma, you probably won't see any value in anything other than your pet sport.

That said, when the bad men come for me, I plan to game the hell out of them.  

E

[idpassr]

IDPA is training for shooting IDPA matches.  If you want to train for shooting IRL, go to Gunsite/TR/Blackwater/whereever.  Shooting IDPA/IPSC/ICORE trains you for shooting those disciplines.

I suppose a person could apply VICR guidelines to shooting games like IDPA/IPSC and just use it for practice(since your scores wouldn't be competitive).

GB

who enjoys IDPA for the game it is.

[Billf]

Thanks all for your posts. I really have no bones of any kinda shooting as I shoot lots of games even bullseye...love to shoot them all or i wouldn't shoot... I agree it is all a game and the training is in GAME shooting. So lets call it what it really is.

TGO,

I wasn't trying to be iresponsible with my posts, if so I opplogize, just looking for words of wisdom. Now when I hear the "GOSPEL" speakers speak THEIR wisdom to the new shooters all I have to do now is send the new shooters to this thread..and your post in particular...Thanks, as a matter of fact I would like to print it in our sportsmans club newsletter. Will you allow me to do so?

Bill

[Flexmoney]

Bilf,

New shooters, no problem.  But, please keep the close-minded, self-annointed "gurus" off this board.  Those types will never change their minds...and won't rest until they change ours.

[Bill]

If IDPA is training, shouldn't we be gaming every stage? To find better ways to survive on the street? Just a thought.

Bill Nesbitt