Skydiver Posted February 21, 2011 Author Share Posted February 21, 2011 Did you ask a follow up question about 5.2.5.3 and changing equipment position? [i'm in Devil's Advocate mode. :-) So that people don't feel like I'm trying to trap anyone, I'm trying to figure out to how this works in relation with 6.2.5.1: You are not allowed to have some equipment to that doesn't comply with the the division requirements "during a course of fire" (6.2.5.1), but now you are allowed to adjust your equipment "during a match" (5.2.5.3). Does "during" mean two different things?] Because after the move you're now in a different division with different requirements/allowances. But I'm still shooting the same match, right? As counter example, let's say I had two single stack compliant belt, holster and pouches rig, but one has more pouches for field courses, and one with less, pouches for smaller stages but make getting out of beds, or chairs easier. By the logic that both rigs comply with the division requirements, during the match, I can swap rigs depending on what is needed for the stage as long I as keep using the same gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Where do you get this stuff? You know very well you can't do a swap like you described with the two SS rigs. That's a totally different set of circumstances. What is being discussed here is what happens when someone gets bumped to Open division for a 6.2.5.1 violation. They are now in a different division. "If a competitor is moved to open, their scores shot with an inappropriate piece or location of equipment, gets moved to open division, they have put themselves in a penalty situation already unless they shot all A’s but probably a lot slower. They would need to follow the guide lines of 5.1.7 to change equipment, but optics higher capacity are all part of open, so if the RM rules it is OK as the equipment meets open division, no harm, no foul. John" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted February 21, 2011 Author Share Posted February 21, 2011 I agree, swapping the SS rigs is illegal, by 5.2.5.3. But what makes it legal for a shooter who gets bumped to open to essentially swap his rigs when he adjusts holster and pouch positions? Or alternately, shooter gets bumped from production to open. Can he show up at the next stage with an race holster? Presumably okay since it complies with open division requirements, right? Or look at the question another way: Shooter gets bumped from production to open at Stage 1. Stage 2 is stand and shoot, he shows up with mag pouches now forward of hip bones. Presumably okay, right? But we would probably frown if going into Stage 3 which is shoot prone with the pouches back behind the hip bone, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 I agree, swapping the SS rigs is illegal, by 5.2.5.3. Then why did you even bother to ask it? But what makes it legal for a shooter who gets bumped to open to essentially swap his rigs when he adjusts holster and pouch positions?Or alternately, shooter gets bumped from production to open. Can he show up at the next stage with an race holster? Presumably okay since it complies with open division requirements, right? Or look at the question another way: Shooter gets bumped from production to open at Stage 1. Stage 2 is stand and shoot, he shows up with mag pouches now forward of hip bones. Presumably okay, right? But we would probably frown if going into Stage 3 which is shoot prone with the pouches back behind the hip bone, right? All of the rules about not swapping gear and location is within a current division. When you bump to Open, you are in a new division and thus a new seat of rules for you. Comply with Open rules and your fine. Now for the part about switching them to the front like most open shooter then to the back for the next stage...to me, that would fall under the "gear must be in the same place for the duration of the match". If the situation was a regular shooter you cant do what you are asking. If a Limited shooter can't adjust them for each stage why should an Open shooter? (thats all we have now, we dont have a shooter who "used to be in production but then got moved". they are just an Open shooter) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Mark, As an RM, would you allow a production shooter to add a magwell and optic to his gun if he got bumped to open? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted February 21, 2011 Author Share Posted February 21, 2011 By showing the other extreme with the SS rig swapping, I'm trying to point out that it sounds like there is an unwritten free pass around 5.2.3.5 to change equipment during a match. Yes, it's an expensive free pass because it takes getting bumped to open. Does this free pass only exist for getting bumped to open? Let's say a match starts out with 5 Production shooters shooting .40 with factory ammo. (Ammo becomes relevant later.) After the first stage, 4 of the Production shooters get called to duty and can't finish the match. The MD decides not to recognize the Production division under 6.2.2. The RM moves the remaining Production shooter to Limited-10 under 6.2.5. Does that remaining production shooter get the same free pass to swap equipment that shooter who got bumped to open under 6.2.5.1? Does the shooter also get a free pass at Appendix D4, Special Condition #4: "Anyone signing up for Production is declaring minor regardless if the ammunition makes major at the chronograph. Should they be moved to another division, they will shoot minor for the entire match or sub-minor should their ammo fail to meet the minimum." ? I suspect the answer will be: Yes, change the equipment; but No, still scoring minor (even if the chrono says Major). Shouldn't the logic "they are now in a new division, the new division rules apply" apply? Are we saying that Appendix D4, Special conditions that explicitly said to score "minor for the entire match", must be enforced, but 5.2.5.3 that explicitly said "equipment must not be moved or changed by a competitor during a match" can be ignored? Does "entire match" and "during a match" have different meanings here? As that production shooter, can I request that PF rule be ignored, and the equipment rule be enforced instead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Mark, As an RM, would you allow a production shooter to add a magwell and optic to his gun if he got bumped to open? I would, or should I say, am now considering allowing it. Right now I'm thinking I would allow it within a reasonable and short timeframe after the competitor was notified of their new "challenge'. The changes would of course have to fit the equipment criteria for the division. 2 or 3 stages later...no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 By showing the other extreme with the SS rig swapping, I'm trying to point out that it sounds like there is an unwritten free pass around 5.2.3.5 to change equipment during a match. Yes, it's an expensive free pass because it takes getting bumped to open. Does this free pass only exist for getting bumped to open? [snip] blah, blah, blah... [snip] I'm sincerely not trying to be disrespectful, but you certainly do come up with some interesting multi-part hypotheticals. Please bear with me. What I wish you would do instead of trying to conceive every possible scenario for a written rule and asking us what is the answer, is take that rulebook you got from your RO class and first try to answer them for yourself, using these 3 variables: 1. from the perspective of the competitor 2. from the perspective of the RO/CRO 3. from the perspective of the RM (congratulations - you've just been appointed to that position!) Make the three answers agree with each of those criteria. Not all three answers will necessarily be tasty, palatable and easy to swallow for all represented viewpoints, but must be fair and consistent for all within the confines of the rulebook. Give it a try. It's a much more fruitful exercise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted February 21, 2011 Author Share Posted February 21, 2011 By showing the other extreme with the SS rig swapping, I'm trying to point out that it sounds like there is an unwritten free pass around 5.2.3.5 to change equipment during a match. Yes, it's an expensive free pass because it takes getting bumped to open. Does this free pass only exist for getting bumped to open? [snip] blah, blah, blah... [snip] I'm sincerely not trying to be disrespectful, but you certainly do come up with some interesting multi-part hypotheticals. Please bear with me. What I wish you would do instead of trying to conceive every possible scenario for a written rule and asking us what is the answer, is take that rulebook you got from your RO class and first try to answer them for yourself, using these 3 variables: 1. from the perspective of the competitor 2. from the perspective of the RO/CRO 3. from the perspective of the RM (congratulations - you've just been appointed to that position!) Make the three answers agree with each of those criteria. Not all three answers will necessarily be tasty, palatable and easy to swallow for all represented viewpoints, but must be fair and consistent for all within the confines of the rulebook. Give it a try. It's a much more fruitful exercise. No disrespect at all! I actually do look at those three legs of the triangle and come to my own conclusions, and as you well noted, the most fair answer is not always easy to swallow from one, two, or at times, all three perspectives. It's the result of that exercise that at best I have answer for myself when the situation comes up, or at worse, I at least know the parts of the problem that are at odds with each other and need to be prioritized and dealt with. As mentioned in the past, a great way to do RO dry-fire. Currently my style, though, is after coming to my own conclusions is that I then pose the scenario that exposes tension points for coming to my answer to see if other people are also thinking along the same lines. I try not to pollute other people's thought processes ahead of time, though, by holding my own conclusions close to my vest. People may bring up a point that I'd not considered or missed (just like you had pointed out the latest clarification by JA in Front Sight). I wanted to take advantage of the great minds, varied perspectives, and the passion that people in this forum have for making USPSA a consistent and fair sport. For future posts, I think I'll post the situation, my position, how I got to that position and what I'd considered, and then ask if I position is correct, if I was using the correct logic to get there, and if there was something that I may have missed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 My 2 cents is if you get bumped to a different division, I would give you a chance to configure your equipment relevant to the new division. Once you shoot the first stage in the new division you are stuck with whatever equipment configuration you have at that time. I can almost guarantee "someone" will not agree Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colt Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 (edited) I like to know how many production or any other divisions carry there regular stuff per there division plus open stuff. That's a heavy gun bag!! Edited February 22, 2011 by colt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted February 22, 2011 Author Share Posted February 22, 2011 I like to know how many production or any other divisions carry there regular stuff per there division plus open stuff. That's a heavy gun bag!! That's what this other thread is about: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=122607&st=0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 My 2 cents is if you get bumped to a different division, I would give you a chance to configure your equipment relevant to the new division. Once you shoot the first stage in the new division you are stuck with whatever equipment configuration you have at that time. I can almost guarantee "someone" will not agree Gary Ya think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 I like to know how many production or any other divisions carry there regular stuff per there division plus open stuff. That's a heavy gun bag!! After watching a few of my friends get moved from production to open, I've taken to bringing a big stick or two..... Figure I'll still be shooting open minor, and probably dropping half full big sticks every time I move, but maybe not always.... :devil: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAFO Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 I'd just load my mags up to 17 and have some fun! It would be a bummer to be bumped to Open, but I've never shot anything other than Prod or Lim-10, so being able to fire 18 rounds without a reload would be some small measure of enjoyment. Maybe I should invest in some extended base pads, you know, just in case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
COMATZD Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 As far as allowing a competitor to add/change a production gun to make it more relevant in open, I would argue that those changes attempt to skirt the part of 5.1.7 that says you have to use the same gun and sights unless it has broken or become unsafe. 5.1.7.1 only allows for the replacement under the broken aspect of the parent rule. It also seems that 5.2.5.3 is relevant under 5.2.5, that is, as long as you are not in violation of some distance rule and are not instructed by an RO or WBS, you cannot move your equipment. I would agree that you could use whatever magazines are relevant to your current division (if you bump to open; load them up, find a big stick or whatever). My 2 pennies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodownzero Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 As far as allowing a competitor to add/change a production gun to make it more relevant in open, I would argue that those changes attempt to skirt the part of 5.1.7 that says you have to use the same gun and sights unless it has broken or become unsafe. 5.1.7.1 only allows for the replacement under the broken aspect of the parent rule. It also seems that 5.2.5.3 is relevant under 5.2.5, that is, as long as you are not in violation of some distance rule and are not instructed by an RO or WBS, you cannot move your equipment. I would agree that you could use whatever magazines are relevant to your current division (if you bump to open; load them up, find a big stick or whatever). My 2 pennies. I would agree. If Amidon says otherwise, of course we have to follow it, but only because Amidon is right because he's final, not final because he's right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 And then there's the version that he's right, because he's right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beltjones Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 (edited) Good lord, can they make these rules any more confusing? Not only do you have the rulebook, you also have emails from John, comments in classes from Troy, and postings here on the Enos Forum. If I ever go to arbitration, I'm going to bring my smartphone along so I can document the appropriate third party "John Amidon said..." post from this forum. These are excellent questions that affect both the administration and the enjoyment of a match for both the competitors and the directors. They really ought to update the amendments section on the USPSA website more often if they want anyone to take the revelations here seriously. Edited February 24, 2011 by beltjones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin c Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 (edited) ...Not only do you have the rulebook, you also have emails from John, comments in classes from Troy, and postings here on the Enos Forum. If I ever go to arbitration, I'm going to bring my smartphone along so I can document the appropriate third party "John Amidon said..." post from this forum... Unfortunately, it gets worse: No matter what is said by whom, even in an email from the brass in NROI, the only official interpretations that count are rulings on the NROI website or that are printed in Front Sight. So - off the cuff comments by Troy or John, and well reasoned, informed opinions offered here, simply do not count for score. Edited February 24, 2011 by kevin c Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted February 24, 2011 Author Share Posted February 24, 2011 (edited) A little bit of thread drift here: This time, I've not completely thought this through yet, but I wanted to bring this up, and leave it completely up to the forum to throw in their opinion: Would providing copies of the opinions from this thread, and/or private emails from Amidon constitute as "Undue Influence" under rule 11.5.8? From the competitor perspective, I'd claim it as evidence. From the RO perspective, it's not an official ruling or clarification as pointed out above and should therefore be irrelevant. If I were the RM and not previously been privy to this thread, I certainly take note of what direction DNROI's sentiments are towards. (But by taking note, have I been influenced or merely educated?) Edit: As I hit the post button, I just realized that the "Undue influence" rule only applies to the Arb Committee, not the RM. Edited February 24, 2011 by Skydiver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 Lets not drift this any further. If you want to discuss that, start another thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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