Aiming through mesh walls

[JAFO]

Just to be clear in my situation there was a wall (mesh), a port, and stuck my gun through the port, and aimed through the mesh.

Until you said that, I misunderstood and thought you put your gun through the port and then shot through a mesh wall. This makes a lot more sense now.

I'm assuming that the 15' difference in where you shot from vs where the designer wanted you to did not present a safety issue with regards to ricochets? If that was the case, would it then be appropriate for a Prohibited Action to be declared?

[steel1212]

How are you going to stop somebody from aiming through mesh but shooting through the port? How do you know I just didn't poke my gun through the port and hope for the best and got luck, I could have done the same if the wall was solid? If its that close of a shot through one port but you wanted it shot through another then move the target or put something up so they CAN"T shoot it. Its not hard to throw up a barrel or a NS to block what you don't want shot. Saying its a forbidden action to not aim through mesh is silly in my opinion. If its a safety issue on a close steel or something say that then put up a NS to re-enforce it.

[Flatland Shooter]

How are you going to stop somebody from aiming through mesh but shooting through the port?

You are asking how to prevent someone from cheating? Possibly the RO will catch it. If not, then here is a case where the cheater wins.

How do you know I just didn't poke my gun through the port and hope for the best and got luck, I could have done the same if the wall was solid?

Freestyle has the competitor shoot the target on an "as visible and when visible" basis. If the shooter knocks down the popper from a port where it is not visible, it may be considered Range Equipment Failure and the shooter will be required to re-shoot the stage. The "got lucky" comment seems to indicate you were knowingly shooting your gun without a sight picture. You will be coming dangerously close to an AD and Match DQ should you not get lucky and hit the popper but instead send one over the berm or into the ground within 10 feet of where you are standing.

Either way, if the shooter does not travel the extra 15 feet to take the shot where the popper is visible, the RO should require the re-shoot.

Edited January 17, 2011 by Flatland Shooter

[Gary Stevens]

We had this situation at Area 8 last year. I had them put no shoot vision barriers around the port (a low one), problem solved.

Although having said that, I see little difference personally between shooting through a "wall" and "sighting" through a wall, but that is a different story.

Gary

[Skydiver]

About 2 years ago, one of our evil stage designers designed a Standard Exercise where all shots had to be fired from the prone position at various distances. There were 2x4's set about about 12 inches off the ground at the shooting stations. During a test run at club match, some people figured out to have their arms under the bar, but aim above bar, and so for the Area 1 match, the stage description was changed to "all shots fired must go through the low port" to prevent this. (Additionally, the stipulation that shots must be fired from the prone position was removed, and I think the bar was raised just a little bit more. This actually made the stage more interesting because it allowed some shooters with problems going prone to simply just bend and/or kneel and contort themselves to get the shot to go through the port.)

[Flexmoney]

How are you going to stop somebody from aiming through mesh but shooting through the port?

Exactly...there is no way to police that. It would be silly to try.

This isn't something that can be easily legislated...nor enforced. If you want a vision barrier...you must build it into the design of the stage.

[steel1212]

How are you going to stop somebody from aiming through mesh but shooting through the port?

You are asking how to prevent someone from cheating? Possibly the RO will catch it. If not, then here is a case where the cheater wins.

How do you know I just didn't poke my gun through the port and hope for the best and got luck, I could have done the same if the wall was solid?

Freestyle has the competitor shoot the target on an "as visible and when visible" basis. If the shooter knocks down the popper from a port where it is not visible, it may be considered Range Equipment Failure and the shooter will be required to re-shoot the stage. The "got lucky" comment seems to indicate you were knowingly shooting your gun without a sight picture. You will be coming dangerously close to an AD and Match DQ should you not get lucky and hit the popper but instead send one over the berm or into the ground within 10 feet of where you are standing.

Either way, if the shooter does not travel the extra 15 feet to take the shot where the popper is visible, the RO should require the re-shoot.

Ok so if the wall is solid I should poke my gun through and pray....bad example. As for the mesh part, it is visible and I didn't shoot through the mesh I shot through the port. How am I cheating? Are you saying I'm cheating because the stage designer said the wall was solid and I'm not suppose to be able to see through it? If that is the case then do the leg work and turn a target around and staple it to the wall so that I CAN'T see it. Its one thing to run a long line of caution tape and say its a solid wall because you don't have enough walls to cover them. Its another thing when a solution is as simple as 6 staples and a extra target which all matches have.

[ima45dv8]

....a solution is as simple as 6 staples and a extra target which all matches have.

I think we have a winner.

[CMV]

It always puzzles me when I read posts or threads wherein someone is maligning "gaming" a stage. Is this not a game? I mean really, aren't I, as the competitor, supposed to try to gain every advantage I can within the specified rules?

Reminds me of a murder trial I testified in last year. The prosecutor asked me a question and the defense attorney did not like my answer as is was very very damning for his client. So the def atty objected, claiming my answer was prejudicing the jury against his client...

The judge looked over at him and said, "That's the whole point of this trial counselor, the detective and the prosecutor are trying to prejudice the jury against your client. Objection overruled."

[steel1212]

Reminds me of a murder trial I testified in last year. The prosecutor asked me a question and the defense attorney did not like my answer as is was very very damning for his client. So the def atty objected, claiming my answer was prejudicing the jury against his client...The judge looked over at him and said, "That's the whole point of this trial counselor, the detective and the prosecutor are trying to prejudice the jury against your client. Objection overruled."

[dhillerman]

This was not something that was caught during setup or walk through obviously. It only became evident well into the match, and to Oddjob's credit, he questioned it bafore shooting it the way he did. There were differing opinions, which is why the question made it to this forum.

Those of us who setup the stages do the best we can to hide and conceal targets, but often we are few in number and find ourselves finishing up about the time the walkthrough is beginning. We just don't see it all. I appriciate those who find the weaknesses in the stages and make it a teachable moment for future reference.

[steel1212]

This was not something that was caught during setup or walk through obviously. It only became evident well into the match, and to Oddjob's credit, he questioned it bafore shooting it the way he did. There were differing opinions, which is why the question made it to this forum.

Those of us who setup the stages do the best we can to hide and conceal targets, but often we are few in number and find ourselves finishing up about the time the walkthrough is beginning. We just don't see it all. I appriciate those who find the weaknesses in the stages and make it a teachable moment for future reference.

I've had it happen many times to my stages its part of the learning curve. Pros and Cons to walls you can see through but I think the PROS far out weigh the Cons.

[Flexmoney]

This was not something that was caught during setup or walk through obviously. It only became evident well into the match, and to Oddjob's credit, he questioned it bafore shooting it the way he did. There were differing opinions, which is why the question made it to this forum.

Those of us who setup the stages do the best we can to hide and conceal targets, but often we are few in number and find ourselves finishing up about the time the walkthrough is beginning. We just don't see it all. I appriciate those who find the weaknesses in the stages and make it a teachable moment for future reference.

Which is how we all get better.

While I don't consider this a hole in the stage, really...we are never going to plug all the holes.

[kevin c]

I shot a Nationals stage this way (the one with the dynamite plunger that opened two ports). I skipped the front port, and ended on the near target shooting SHO through the side port while looking through the mesh. I got complimented on my ingenuity, but it didn't help my score any.

I've been told by the wise to set up on the first target in an array as soon as possible, and one technique taught was to start aiming on that target through a mesh wall so that you could break the first shot as soon as the muzzle clears the barricade. I don't see this as being much different.

Mesh walls are easy for construction, have much better spectator appeal, but do allow techniques like this. I consider this a course design issue: if the designer doesn't want folks aiming at a target before it becomes visible through a port or around a barricade, then the barricade or at least the necessary parts of it should be opaque.

[Skydiver]

And so the question comes back up again about classifier CM03-09 On The Move. Don't people who shoot the classifier with a mesh wall get an advantage over those who shoot it with a solid wall? People can start setting up on the next target earlier by aiming through the mesh and breaking the shot as they clear the wall.

[Flatland Shooter]

And so the question comes back up again about classifier CM03-09 On The Move. Don't people who shoot the classifier with a mesh wall get an advantage over those who shoot it with a solid wall? People can start setting up on the next target earlier by aiming through the mesh and breaking the shot as they clear the wall.

Tough to enforce in this case, but Rule 3.2.6 applies. "In the event that a competitor action contravenes the course requirements, but is not specifically prohibited in the Written Stage Briefing, the Range Master must be immediately summoned for a ruling. The Range Master may rule that the action is allowed and the competitor's score will stand. Alternatively, the Range Master may require modifications to the course of fire, and/or may declare that the action is "forbidden".

This classifier indicates the walls are vision barriers and therefore the course requirement is the targets cannot be seen prior to rounding the end of the wall. That's the tough part. Is the shooter "aiming" at the target through the snow fence or are they carrying their gun at eye level in preparation of coming into view of the target?

Bill

Edited January 18, 2011 by Flatland Shooter

[XRe]

In a bigger match the stage designers will be a little more careful in the Stage Procedure. Sometimes the stage designer may not know a snow fence wall will be used. Usually we will "adjust" either the stage (add no-shoots or barrels or something) or change the written stage briefing to accomidate things like this. A simple written comment on the briefing such as "the snow fence represents a vision barrier" would suffice.

Actually, Bill, it wouldn't. If the competitor can see through it, they can see through it. If it's important to the stage that they not see through it, you better set it up so that they don't. There's no rule in USPSA/IPSC that allows you to say "you can't see that from there" when you clearly can see it...

If the popper were "accidentally" hit from a port where it was not considered a visible target, the RO will stop the shooter, declare this a range equipment failure, and require the competitor to re-shoot the stage. Rule 4.6.1

4.6.1 would apply if the competitor's bullet passes through the wall - unless declared otherwise, the wall is hardcover, and it's failure to stop the bullet from striking the popper is the actual REF.

My guess, in a big match where a shooter decides to utilize this loophole, the Match Officials may declare this a "Forbidden Action" [Rule 2.3.1.1.a] and require that the competitor reshoot the stage. All remaining competitors will need to be notified of this change. Should later competitors, after being advised this is a forbidden action, decide to use the loophole, Rule 10.2.11 kicks in with that competitor zero'ing the stage.

It would depend on the RM. In situations like that, you really see how secure the RM is in his manhood... Falling back on 2.3.1.1a just to workaround a stage setup loophole is pretty lame (at least, to those of us who've BTDT and been doing this stuff for years and years... the right answer is to suck it up and strive to do better next time... not invoke that rule as a "damn it, they'll do exactly what I tell them to do... or I'll take my toys and go home" kind of move). The only time I've seen Forbidden Action used appropriately was this past year at A2, where it was discovered (too late) that the stage setup allowed the competitor to put rounds over the berm if they shot a target from a kneeling or lower position - FA was the only way to responsibly keep the stage in the match.

[XRe]

Thread drift. We see the move to mesh as a result of fewer helpers, so lighter walls require fewer people and matches can take place. I prefer solid walls, as it changes the dynamics of the shooting as opposed to a see-though wall.

Well, there are more reasons than just this - you can make lightweight walls out of opaque materials (1x1 steel tube and coroplast walls are extremely light and easy to move around... and I can make a heavy wall using mesh if I frame it out of wood...). Mesh walls tend to stay standing in high wind, which we get a lot of around here. And, for the very fact that they are opaque, solid walls can lead to problems if the ROs aren't doing their job in clearing the stage - so, in some senses, mesh walls are seen as safer than solid walls.

The best shooters will still win, regardless of the type of wall, but transparent walls are going to lead to easier gun presentations as the shooter arrives in position, and changes the nature of the challenge...

[XRe]

This classifier indicates the walls are vision barriers and therefore the course requirement is the targets cannot be seen prior to rounding the end of the wall. That's the tough part. Is the shooter "aiming" at the target through the snow fence or are they carrying their gun at eye level in preparation of coming into view of the target?

As the classifier declares the walls are vision barriers, they should be vision barriers - using mesh walls is in inappropriate, and the classifier has been set up incorrectly (just as if the classifier was not measured out properly, for instance). So, this shouldn't even be an issue, either way.

[Flexmoney]

And so the question comes back up again about classifier CM03-09 On The Move. Don't people who shoot the classifier with a mesh wall get an advantage over those who shoot it with a solid wall? People can start setting up on the next target earlier by aiming through the mesh and breaking the shot as they clear the wall.

It specifically states "vision barrier" in the stage diagram. It should be built with a true vision barrier.

(opps...XRe beat me to that one.)

[Mark R]

Like 03-09 states...walls are vision barriers. So my club will not be able to shoot this classifier, since all we have is mess or screen walls, unless I get non-transparent barrier to stop the competitor from seeing thru it and wall extensions to make them 8x8 since our walls are 6x6 and 6x8.

But as I see it, I have plenty of other classifiers to shoot...I just skip over the ones where we don't have the proper dimensions or properties on props.

[sperman]

6x8 blue plastic tarps are less than $5 at Lowes. If you wanted to shoot this one, you could staple the tarps in place for the classifier.

[Flexmoney]

6x8 blue plastic tarps are less than $5 at Lowes. If you wanted to shoot this one, you could staple the tarps in place for the classifier.

Good solution for a quick fix.

[Mark R]

<<THINKING>>........ Self, why didn't you think of that? Cept I need 2 per wall...walls are 8x8, not 6x8. Ha lol

Hey...and clamp on wall extenders....now we're cooking.

Edited January 19, 2011 by Mark R

[XRe]

And so the question comes back up again about classifier CM03-09 On The Move. Don't people who shoot the classifier with a mesh wall get an advantage over those who shoot it with a solid wall? People can start setting up on the next target earlier by aiming through the mesh and breaking the shot as they clear the wall.

It specifically states "vision barrier" in the stage diagram. It should be built with a true vision barrier.

(opps...XRe beat me to that one.)

I'll just add that, if you know what you're doing as a shooter, you're setting up on the target and breaking the shot as soon as the target appears whether you've got a mesh wall or a solid wall anyway, so...