GOF Posted January 1, 2011 Share Posted January 1, 2011 Another thread prompted some/my research into just what consitutes "cover" under IDPA Rules. After a through review of the current Rule Book, and the new addendum, I can find lots of references to when and how "cover" must be used in a COF. But, I can't find a single definition of cover. What constitutes "cover"? GOF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ahab Posted January 1, 2011 Share Posted January 1, 2011 You already know how I'm going to answer this, but my definition of cover, and the one I believe that is consistent to the rulebook's guidelines on the use of cover for firing and reloading is "cover is any location within a stage where you are less than 50% exposed to an un-engaged threat target". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cy Soto Posted January 1, 2011 Share Posted January 1, 2011 Another thread prompted some/my research into just what consitutes "cover" under IDPA Rules. After a through review of the current Rule Book, and the new addendum, I can find lots of references to when and how "cover" must be used in a COF. But, I can't find a single definition of cover. What constitutes "cover"? GOF Appendix 3 on page 43 of the IDPA Rulebook may help answer your question. It talks about the proper use of cover during a COF. I understand that you want a very specific definition of what constitutes "cover" but it is possible that you may be over-analyzing this aspect of the game. "Cover" can be anything that can be used as a "visual barrier" that will help the competitor comply with the definition presented in Appendix 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted January 1, 2011 Share Posted January 1, 2011 This is a good definition IMO... along with the comment about over thinking... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOF Posted January 1, 2011 Author Share Posted January 1, 2011 (edited) Ahab, Your definition of cover is the clearest... most concise... definitive... and least subject to interpretation...definition of what "cover" is that I have ever heard. I hope IDPA HQ is viewing. If that simple sentence is incorporated into the Rule Book, or addendum, it immediately resolves one of the biggest Rules controversies in IDPA today. A tip of the hat to you, Sir! Until we have a precise Rule Book definition of what "cover" actually is... and not just how to use "cover" that is undefined in the Rule Book, we will still have subjective opinions, instead of International standards. I hate traveling to an out of state sanctioned match and having to ask "How do ya'll rule cover here?". If IDPA wants to be an International organization, lets have concrete Rules that are not subject to individual interpretation. Ahab's definition of what "cover" actually is is a good one. Until you define precisely what "cover" is, you can't determine... without a subjective opinion... if a shooter is using "cover" correctly. GOF Edited January 1, 2011 by GOF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHARLES D Posted January 1, 2011 Share Posted January 1, 2011 GOF, Very well put. Interpatation of cover from different clubs vary from place to place. +1 on your statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve J Posted January 1, 2011 Share Posted January 1, 2011 You can use a vertical 4x4 for cover. You only have to be behind cover to the target you are immediately engaging. 100% of your lower body and 50% of your upper torso has to be behind the vertical edge of cover to the target you're engaging. Cover in IDPA is for purposes of the game. It is not intended to be actual "cover or concealment" in the tactical sense where cover will stop a bullet and concealment will not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robot Posted January 1, 2011 Share Posted January 1, 2011 "cover is any location within a stage where you are less than 50% exposed to an un-engaged threat target". Agreed! That would mean that shooting from a small port is automatically cover (as long as it doesn't expose more than 50%) and shooting while prone is also cover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOF Posted January 1, 2011 Author Share Posted January 1, 2011 Steve J, How does that define what "cover" actually is? If I am in a wall situation, and 15 feet behind the wall, yet I cannot see any unengaged targets (and given that, they can't see me) and I am moving behind that wall to a position where I can see the unengaged targets... does that mean I am behind cover and can reload as I move behind that wall to where I can see, and engage, the unengaged targets? Can I reload as I move behind that wall? Or, do I have to reach a specific point on that wall/cover before I reload? The Rule book clearly defines how a shooter must use cover. Yet, it never defines what "cover" actually is. If you can't provide a specific definition of "cover", how can you tell if a ahooter is using "cover" properly? How about IDPA HQ come up with a definition of cover. There is not one positive definition on what actually constitutes cover in the Rule Book. Only how to "use" cover... with said cover being undefined, and up to the individual interpretation of any and all SOs. There lies the problem - interpretation of an undefined rule. GOF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirveyr Posted January 1, 2011 Share Posted January 1, 2011 "cover is any location within a stage where you are less than 50% exposed to an un-engaged threat target". Agreed! That would mean that shooting from a small port is automatically cover (as long as it doesn't expose more than 50%) and shooting while prone is also cover. Unfortunately, I believe this is no longer true since the rules addendum. Slice the pie, Baby! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Springer Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 Ahhhh this is more of a reloading behind cover question than a cover question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOF Posted January 2, 2011 Author Share Posted January 2, 2011 (edited) A bit more confusing language in the Rules. The new addendum... Change of language to CoF 9. Page 12.. partial quote...fourth sentence down, midway through sentence... " Competitors may NOT cross any opening (doorways, windows, open speces, etc.) without engaging targets". I have always understood the existing Rules to require that in a doorway, window, or other open space, that a competitor must use that space as cover and pie the targets from cover, and if you cross it with unengaged targets visible you get a cover PE. What does this new Rule mean? Do you have to shoot them as you cross the opening, or does normal pieing the targets and engaging all visible targets from the cover of the indow or doorway, and then crossing it to get to the next shooting position work? What is "crossing" a window, for example. Running straight over it and exposed? Ducking under it and remaining under cover. Can anyone explain this one? GOF Edited January 2, 2011 by GOF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve J Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 (edited) Steve J, How does that define what "cover" actually is? If I am in a wall situation, and 15 feet behind the wall, yet I cannot see any unengaged targets (and given that, they can't see me) and I am moving behind that wall to a position where I can see the unengaged targets... does that mean I am behind cover and can reload as I move behind that wall to where I can see, and engage, the unengaged targets? Can I reload as I move behind that wall? Or, do I have to reach a specific point on that wall/cover before I reload? The Rule book clearly defines how a shooter must use cover. Yet, it never defines what "cover" actually is. If you can't provide a specific definition of "cover", how can you tell if a ahooter is using "cover" properly? How about IDPA HQ come up with a definition of cover. There is not one positive definition on what actually constitutes cover in the Rule Book. Only how to "use" cover... with said cover being undefined, and up to the individual interpretation of any and all SOs. There lies the problem - interpretation of an undefined rule. GOF As a match director and SOI, I know cover when I see it. If you have a single wall with targets to engage downrange from behind that wall and from both sides, then yes, you're behind cover when moving from one end of the wall to the other (P1 to P2) and yes that is cover for reloading. If, however, you have to depart from that wall to another wall (P3), you are not behind cover until you reach P3. Rule of thumb is contact distance. Whether or not targets have been engaged, have no bearing on whether or not you're behind cover. A COF description may designate certain areas like a hallway as "cover for reloading", but absent that, the above applies and will keep you from getting a procedural at say, the World Championship in Florida. Edited January 2, 2011 by Steve J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve J Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 A bit more confusing language in the Rules. The new addendum... Change of language to CoF 9. Page 12.. partial quote...fourth sentence down, midway through sentence... " Competitors may NOT cross any opening (doorways, windows, open speces, etc.) without engaging targets". I have always understood the existing Rules to require that in a doorway, window, or other open space, that a competitor must use that space as cover and pie the targets from cover, and if you cross it with unengaged targets visible you get a cover PE. What does this new Rule mean? Do you have to shoot them as you cross the opening, or does normal pieing the targets and engaging all visible targets from the cover of the indow or doorway, and then crossing it to get to the next shooting position work? What is "crossing" a window, for example. Running straight over it and exposed? Ducking under it and remaining under cover. Can anyone explain this one? GOF It means, you can not cross in front of a window or opening without having FIRST engaged the target in tactical priority from the edge of the door or window. Then and only then may you cross the opening, but not with an empty gun or while reloading. Yes, if you duck under the window you are behind cover. The language may not be perfect, but it is still perfectly understandable if you apply a little common sense with regard to how things have always been done. You can ask questions like this ad nauseam about any set or rules or laws. but why, but why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lugnut Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 If, however, you have to depart from that wall to another wall (P3), you are not behind cover until you reach P3. Rule of thumb is contact distance. Whether or not targets have been engaged, have no bearing on whether or not you're behind cover. So where does the rule of thumb of contact distance come from? I've never heard of this and this is part of the issue with the lack of adequate description of what cover is in the rule book. If I'm 7 yards or 1 yard from a wall and I'm not exposed to threats- aren't I still behind cover? And hence be allowed to initiate a reload? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHARLES D Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 This is why I always keep a Rule Book (2005) with me when participating in an IDPA Match. To much interpretation from one club to another. If I disagree with a call I always break out the Rule Book and show the R.O. Section "Requirements for club affiliation." #9 "Clubs must make sure the competitors have the benefit of the doubt in all questionable circumstances." Until HQ comes out with a new Rule Book there is way to many questions on "Cover Procedures". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted January 2, 2011 Share Posted January 2, 2011 A bit more confusing language in the Rules. The new addendum... Change of language to CoF 9. Page 12.. partial quote...fourth sentence down, midway through sentence... " Competitors may NOT cross any opening (doorways, windows, open speces, etc.) without engaging targets". I have always understood the existing Rules to require that in a doorway, window, or other open space, that a competitor must use that space as cover and pie the targets from cover, and if you cross it with unengaged targets visible you get a cover PE. What does this new Rule mean? Do you have to shoot them as you cross the opening, or does normal pieing the targets and engaging all visible targets from the cover of the indow or doorway, and then crossing it to get to the next shooting position work? What is "crossing" a window, for example. Running straight over it and exposed? Ducking under it and remaining under cover. Can anyone explain this one? GOF The rulebook used to only define cover to be used when shooting. So you were able to cross an opening without engaging the targets first, the clarification eliminated that possibility. Cover has never had anything to do with whether targets have been engaged or not. You can't leave a position of cover with an empty gun or reload in between two places of cover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John K Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 As an SO and MD I think IDPA is doing a real disservice to the members and especially the SOs. The rulebook is inadequate. Why do they go to the trouble to tell you how much your gun can weigh and what power factor you have to make, but fail?/elect to define key terms like cover? I know cover when I see it. What happens when our perceptions of cover do not meet? IDPA is a money making enterprise. It seems to have little interest in what the competitors want or need. I, as a member, am not asking for lower match fees, lower annual fees, a new hat, stickers or glossy magazine. I want a well written rulebook. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suicycle Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 Most situations I have seen are brought up in the walk throug of the stage. Usually there is at least one guy in the squad that is relatively new to the sport or one that is extremely game minded, where the majority just shoot the stage as intended. The local club SO's are great at pointing out areas on the stage that are and aren't "behind cover" even if threats are not visible from that specific point. Usually when leaving a hallway going to another area of the stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lugnut Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 Most situations I have seen are brought up in the walk throug of the stage. Usually there is at least one guy in the squad that is relatively new to the sport or one that is extremely game minded, where the majority just shoot the stage as intended. The local club SO's are great at pointing out areas on the stage that are and aren't "behind cover" even if threats are not visible from that specific point. Usually when leaving a hallway going to another area of the stage. Yes you are correct. Most of the time, most of these issues are addressed during the walk thru... adding more time to what usually are simple stages. I've never understood this statement: " where the majority just shoot the stage as intended" Sorry, but I fall in the group of people that want to find the quickest way to shoot a stage- I don't care how it was "intended" to be... just that I follow the rules and shoot as well and as fast as I can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillD Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 I've always wondered about shooting from behind a single barrel. Could a normal guy just stand up behind a barrel and be considered 50% cover? Or, do you have to squat, take a knee to be considered behind cover. Another thing I've seen people do is duck back behind cover after shooting to reload. I was under the impression (could be wrong. I've been married 3 time; I've made mistakes) that if you were behind enough cover to shoot, you were under enough cover to reload without having to duck back. Also, while I'm on a roll, some of the better shooters shoot so fast and move so quick, it's hard to tell if that last shot on a target was from behind cover, because they were already moving. I agree, some things need to be cleared up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lugnut Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 I've always wondered about shooting from behind a single barrel. Could a normal guy just stand up behind a barrel and be considered 50% cover? Or, do you have to squat, take a knee to be considered behind cover. Required shots behind a barrel would likely be low cover and low cover is defined as at least one knee on the ground- both for shooting or reloading. If it wasn't low cover then what you said would be real difficult for most people. Another thing I've seen people do is duck back behind cover after shooting to reload. I was under the impression (could be wrong. I've been married 3 time; I've made mistakes) that if you were behind enough cover to shoot, you were under enough cover to reload without having to duck back. No need to move back in. You are correct. Also, while I'm on a roll, some of the better shooters shoot so fast and move so quick, it's hard to tell if that last shot on a target was from behind cover, because they were already moving. I agree, some things need to be cleared up. If you can't see it you can't call it. However if they weren't behind cover, and made a shot before you could warn them (your choice)- they earn a PE regardless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 This has begun to go down the well, WELL worn path of complaining about the Rule Book, and what individuals think the Rule Book should and shouldn't be. Therefore I"m going to close this one down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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