2011 USPSA MultiGun Nationals

[D.Hayden]

So...do away with power factor, because of cheaters? !!?

I just think most 3 Gunners just prefer timeplus.. which doesn't have Power factor scoring

Edited November 1, 2011 by D.Hayden

[Mike P]

Collecting ammo after a run, or other random methods has been done in the other pistol sport. Really though, those inclined to fudge will find a way. Better to just do away with PF altogether, pistol only matches too.

Not HM though, there it should be raised.

So...do away with power factor, because of cheaters? !!?

No, do away with it because it a non-issue except in the scoring method. Whether you shoot paper targets, marshmallows, or softballs, none of them will be able to tell the difference between a 9, 40, 45, or 50. Better to just do away with it, and while we're at it do away with the "D" zone too.

[Flexmoney]

You brought up cheaters, though.

Reading this, I'd suggest boiling a point of view down to the concise issue. Cheaters and Wal-mart ammo....I don't think that is the issue that those making those arguments really have. ??

Jesse...you don't use walmart val-u-pak shotgun ammo do you? Nor, an 1100...for that matter? You get the stuff that works, right?

[Stlhead]

1 A/B or 2 C. That idea warrants additional discussion. The big complaint against time plus has always been that it rewards shooting 2 D's. This seems like it could be a nice compromise.

The chrono is not there to keep cheaters from shooting mouse fart loads, it is there to make sure that honest competitors are indeed following the rules. Cheaters will find a way to dupe the system, they are cheaters after all, the people that get caught at the chrono are the honest competitors who are most always surprised when they go minor. After all who would willingly hand over ammo for testing that they knew was not going to fly?

[Flexmoney]

So...do away with power factor, because of cheaters? !!?

I just think most 3 Gunners just prefer timeplus.. which doesn't have Power factor scoring

Time plus could include power factor scoring...or not. (for example: a point down with Major might be +.025s, and a point down in Minor might be +.50s )

Is it really hit factor scoring that is the issue that you are speaking of?

Maybe everybody should be scored Minor?

[Jesse Tischauser]

You brought up cheaters, though.

Reading this, I'd suggest boiling a point of view down to the concise issue. Cheaters and Wal-mart ammo....I don't think that is the issue that those making those arguments really have. ??

Jesse...you don't use walmart val-u-pak shotgun ammo do you? Nor, an 1100...for that matter? You get the stuff that works, right?

I run AA's from Academy my buddy uses the Remington value pack stuff from Walmart.

[D.Hayden]

Time plus could include power factor scoring...or not. (for example: a point down with Major might be +.025s, and a point down in Minor might be +.50s )

Is it really hit factor scoring that is the issue that you are speaking of?

Maybe everybody should be scored Minor?

It really can't. Either it's 'neutralized' or it's not. 2 Ds are the same as 1 A - both are clean - how could PF change that? Unless you want to apply it at a stage points level only?

Keep it simple. Once you bring minor/major power factors in for scoring, the ease and speed of scoring goes away. Otherwise.. it's a simple 'clean', or 2 FTNs, etc.. not: Pistol xxx Rifle: xxx Shotgun: xxx

Matches can almost force you to go major with a pistol, some of the targets at Ironman just about require major (spinners)...

[smokshwn]

New shooters with only a couple of years of experience that don't reload or have a chrono like me are the shooters we want at these big or little matches. If factory ammo don't make power factor then the power factor rules are excluding the shooters we need.

Anyone who is competing at the national level should be beyond the point of having a chronograph. There is no way to know your rifle ballistics without accurate muzzle velocities.

As to the cheapest ammunition bought from the cheapest retailer not making power factor I say "not too surprising". Again if you are spending $12-1500 + to go to a major match it seems a little preparation and testing would be in order. If you don't then really the mistake is on the shooter not the rule book.

You don't need a chrono and incorrect ballistics program to know your rifle ballistics. You can actually shoot bullets at targets to know where your bullets go. I learned that on this here forum! Lol!!!

This may be true for one given location and set of atmospheric conditions.

But when you shoot your bullets on paper at 500ft elevation and 90 degrees with 95% humidity, how do you predict your bullets path at 7500 ft and 65 degrees with only 25% humidity?

This might be a trick question

Edited November 1, 2011 by smokshwn

[Jesse Tischauser]

New shooters with only a couple of years of experience that don't reload or have a chrono like me are the shooters we want at these big or little matches. If factory ammo don't make power factor then the power factor rules are excluding the shooters we need.

Anyone who is competing at the national level should be beyond the point of having a chronograph. There is no way to know your rifle ballistics without accurate muzzle velocities.

As to the cheapest ammunition bought from the cheapest retailer not making power factor I say "not too surprising". Again if you are spending $12-1500 + to go to a major match it seems a little preparation and testing would be in order. If you don't then really the mistake is on the shooter not the rule book.

You don't need a chrono and incorrect ballistics program to know your rifle ballistics. You can actually shoot bullets at targets to know where your bullets go. I learned that on this here forum! Lol!!!

This may be true for one given location and set of atmospheric conditions.

But when you shoot your bullets on paper at 500ft elevation and 90 degrees with 95% humidity, how do you predict your bullets path at 7500 ft and 65 degrees with only 25% humidity?

This might be a trick question

I use the little ballistics chart on the back of the ammo box. When I shot Rocky Mountain I was told I needed to rezero for the altitude. So I got there early and shot a few at 100 yards and it was too close to make any adjustments. Beginners luck I guess.

I did miss that 590 yard bonus though.

[Doug H.]

New shooters with only a couple of years of experience that don't reload or have a chrono like me are the shooters we want at these big or little matches. If factory ammo don't make power factor then the power factor rules are excluding the shooters we need.

Anyone who is competing at the national level should be beyond the point of having a chronograph. There is no way to know your rifle ballistics without accurate muzzle velocities.

As to the cheapest ammunition bought from the cheapest retailer not making power factor I say "not too surprising". Again if you are spending $12-1500 + to go to a major match it seems a little preparation and testing would be in order. If you don't then really the mistake is on the shooter not the rule book.

You don't need a chrono and incorrect ballistics program to know your rifle ballistics. You can actually shoot bullets at targets to know where your bullets go. I learned that on this here forum! Lol!!!

This may be true for one given location and set of atmospheric conditions.

But when you shoot your bullets on paper at 500ft elevation and 90 degrees with 95% humidity, how do you predict your bullets path at 7500 ft and 65 degrees with only 25% humidity?

This might be a trick question

I use the little ballistics chart on the back of the ammo box. When I shot Rocky Mountain I was told I needed to rezero for the altitude. So I got there early and shot a few at 100 yards and it was too close to make any adjustments. Beginners luck I guess.

I did miss that 590 yard bonus though.

There were steel targets out to 600 yards on the sight in range at RM3G. My 100 yard zero was within an inch, but the longer range stuff you need to check against your ballistic table. One shot on the 600 yard target 2 years in a row, it pays to check.

As for USPSA power factor, if you can knock down the steel that should be good enough with rifle or pistol. If power factor is so important how come they don't check the shotguns?

Doug

[MustangGreg66]

New shooters with only a couple of years of experience that don't reload or have a chrono like me are the shooters we want at these big or little matches. If factory ammo don't make power factor then the power factor rules are excluding the shooters we need.

Anyone who is competing at the national level should be beyond the point of having a chronograph. There is no way to know your rifle ballistics without accurate muzzle velocities.

As to the cheapest ammunition bought from the cheapest retailer not making power factor I say "not too surprising". Again if you are spending $12-1500 + to go to a major match it seems a little preparation and testing would be in order. If you don't then really the mistake is on the shooter not the rule book.

You don't need a chrono and incorrect ballistics program to know your rifle ballistics. You can actually shoot bullets at targets to know where your bullets go. I learned that on this here forum! Lol!!!

This may be true for one given location and set of atmospheric conditions.

But when you shoot your bullets on paper at 500ft elevation and 90 degrees with 95% humidity, how do you predict your bullets path at 7500 ft and 65 degrees with only 25% humidity?

This might be a trick question

I use the little ballistics chart on the back of the ammo box. When I shot Rocky Mountain I was told I needed to rezero for the altitude. So I got there early and shot a few at 100 yards and it was too close to make any adjustments. Beginners luck I guess.

I did miss that 590 yard bonus though.

There were steel targets out to 600 yards on the sight in range at RM3G. My 100 yard zero was within an inch, but the longer range stuff you need to check against your ballistic table. One shot on the 600 yard target 2 years in a row, it pays to check.

As for USPSA power factor, if you can knock down the steel that should be good enough with rifle or pistol. If power factor is so important how come they don't check the shotguns?

Doug

I heard they used to, but destroyed more than a few chronos doing so

[Doug H.]

As for USPSA power factor, if you can knock down the steel that should be good enough with rifle or pistol. If power factor is so important how come they don't check the shotguns?

Doug

I heard they used to, but destroyed more than a few chronos doing so

IPSC chronos shotguns, guess they can shoot better than us.

[chendersby]

We don't chrono shotguns because most all of the targets are birds or knockdown so they score the same major or minor. And any paper targets are shot with slugs. One ounce of lead makes major with any velocity that will run a semi auto shotgun!

Chrono would be pointless.

[Doug H.]

We don't chrono shotguns because most all of the targets are birds or knockdown so they score the same major or minor. And any paper targets are shot with slugs. One ounce of lead makes major with any velocity that will run a semi auto shotgun!

Chrono would be pointless.

Exactly my point, if you can knock down the steel with a rifle or pistol that is good enough, chrono is not necessary. Works at all the outlaw matches, which far outnumber USPSA multigun matches.

As for making major with shotgun loads, I did a lot of chrono work with my loads for the Pan Am match because they said our shotguns would be chronoed. Several of my loads did not make the 480 PF so I switched to heavier loads. No, not all 12 ga. shotgun loads make major out of all guns.

Doug

[Blockhead]

Possible solution for rewarding power factor with timeplus scoring could be to calibrate the steel for major power factor .40. The calibration procedure could stay the same, just change the PF of the round used.

I took my Glock 34 when I had the chance to shoot Iron Man 2 years ago. A couple of guys warned me that I might find the minor PF 9mm to be a little light on some of the steel and they were right. Had similar issues with some of the poppers at BRM3G.

Unfortunately, this doesn't solve the Rifle PF issue. As Chuck already pointed out, PF carried the day in HM-Optics this year.

[EmanP]

Don't go screwing over everyone else shooting 9mm just to try to get what you want.

[DocMedic]

Can sombody explain this obsession of WANTING major vs minor pf in 3gun? I don't understand the point of having Major PF if were trying to promote accuracy in 3gun sports. Hit factor is no big deal, but Major vs minor that's THE ISSUE.

Edited November 5, 2011 by DocMedic

[Chuck Anderson]

IPSC and USPSA have at their basis three fundamental principles. DVC. Accuracy Power and Speed. It's like a three legged stool. Take one leg away and you end up like IPSC with Airsoft. I don't understand what the big deal is with Major Minor. If you want to shoot 9mm go for it. It's not that big of a deal. The number of guys shooting major rifle is really minuscule.

For those that were around it's not like USPSA was the first to require power in three gun. I still have an ammo can filled with 180+PF .40 ammo to make power at the SOF match. And if memory serve they used to have a requirement for Service power rifle ammo. Or something similar to that.

[DocMedic]

Last year I shot 90% of my local matches as limited minor with my STI9mm and shot 3 level II matches as limited minor in preperartion of major 3 gun matches. After doing some napkin math. I would down anywhere from 5% to 15% less points if I had shot major per stage, that's adds up quick in the overall. Major vs minor is a steep uphill battle.

[Sterling White]

For what it is worth.... the stages at this years Nats were more like the non-USPSA matches (thumbs up). The design crew did a bang up job. Just wished that the props would have cooperated a little better than they did.

The issue with clay targets began the day before the match actually began. We identified several issues, including: 1) clays being used as rifle targets, 2) chips on flying clays, and 3) points for flying clays.

1) Static clays are not a great rifle target. Breaks are inconsistent and sometimes hard to see especially if using a 1x or irons. This issue could be easily solved if clay "rabbits" were used.

2) Having spent a number of years on the trap line I've seen dusted and chipped birds that were questioned and ruled upon by the other shooters or the official. Now I'm seeing the same debates in 3G. At the Nats we had several instances where seasoned shooters debated with USPSA RO's over chipped targets. In all instances the shooter lost the debate. Since the target couldn't be retrieved it was kangaroo court.

The point is... unlike shooting trap, where 4 other shooters and an official witness the clay, a 3G shotgun stage is complex. It has movement and action all at once. Good shooters will engage several static targets while waiting for the flyer or the flipper usually followed by more movement and shooting. Having several shooters on the line following the RO and shooter as witnesses could remedy the issue however I'm sure the rules committee would scratch their heads this one.

3) I had a conversation with Taran on a Stage 1 and we kicked around the idea of shooting the flying clays or letting them go. At the end of the conversation it was decided to let the clays go because they disappear. Points v. time plays an important part and the amount of time it takes to wait and engage a flying target is not worth it. This point was debated with several other GM/M level shooters. Several shooters thought that all targets should be shot and letting them go felt wrong. A little later the debate was brought to the attention of the Match Admin and it was decided that flying clays would be worth more points. A simple solution to a mathematical problem.

The prize table coordinator fell down on the job. The reward for winning a Limited Nat'l Championship was a Mossberg pump. WTH? Complete rifles went 6 or more deep on the ST table.

Edited November 8, 2011 by Sterling White

[busyhawk]

Sterling,

Love you man but I have to jump into this;

#1 I was not at the match...didn't have the funds this year.

#2 I hope the top TI shooter was given the same trophy/plaque as the top Open or TS shooter...in recognition for his efforts as the top in the Nation shooter in for which ever division.

As for the prize table...As the prize table coordinator for our North West Multi-Gun Challenge I really hate to split the prizes for the prize table! If I could the matches would be free and everyone would be paid cash appropriate down to 10% at least. Then prize table would be handed out. I see the prize table as a bonus from our great sponsors.

My spin and how I do it at our match and how it is done at almost all racing events:

USPSA Multigun Nationals stats,

Tactical Optics; 106

Tactical Irons; 15

Open; 56

HM Tactical 8

HM Irons 2

Now knowing how many shooters there are, here is my math:

The purse goes to the top 10% of shooters. If I collect/allot $20 from each shooter for the cash pay out then:

Tactical Optics: I have $2,120 to spend for 10 shooters (93 finished)

Tactical Irons: I have $300 to spend for 1 shooter (13 finished)

Open: I have $1,120 to spend for 5 shooters (51 finished)

HM Tactical: I have $160 to spend for 1 shooter (6 finished)

HM Limited: I have $40 to spend for 1 shooter (1 finished)

Since USPSA only has prizes then I speculate that the prizes go accordingly to the same math. Doing the prize table is one hell of a tough job and there is no right way/a way to make everyone happy.

I would rather just RO and shoot...putting on a match is a PITA for sure.

Shout of thanks to all the efforts to everyone involved in our sport!

RLTW,

Scott

[Sterling White]

I like the system used at Rocky Mountain. It rewards performance regardless of division.

[Chuck Anderson]

I like the system used at Rocky Mountain. It rewards performance regardless of division.

So you think the guy who won the HM Limited National title against the challenging field of one other guy should walk the prize table before Taran Butler? Who finished 2nd to Daniel? Yeah, that sounds much more fair.

[arsoncop9]

I also like RM3G prize table. Chuck you walk the table as a percentage not as a place so even if you are second place if you are 80% to the first place guy then you walk the with all the other 80%ers. it is a little hard to explain but it does really promote people to shoot tac irons and heavy irons. Denise and jj do a wonderful job

Edited November 10, 2011 by arsoncop9

[Doug H.]

I like the system used at Rocky Mountain. It rewards performance regardless of division.

So you think the guy who won the HM Limited National title against the challenging field of one other guy should walk the prize table before Taran Butler? Who finished 2nd to Daniel? Yeah, that sounds much more fair.

The problem is you have made an assuption that the guy who won HM Limited is not as good a shooter as Butler because more people didn't shoot the division. What did you base this on? Did you shoot with him? The guy took first, enough said. Not his fault no buddy else wanted to play.

I also like the Rocky Mountain system. No system is 100% fair and somebody is always unhappy, that's life.

Doug