Bryan 45 Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Matt Sweeney with the AMU. Ended up getting bumped to Open. Sorry, I got confused. I thought he got bumped from Heavy Irons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 First off I will say this, what the hell does a flying/flipping clay represent in our sport? I know white targets represent hostages/no shoots. I know that wig wags drop outs bobers, Max traps etc. represent fleeting targets and targets that appear and reappear from behind cover. I know that when I run through a building it simulates CQB and room clearing. Does a flipping clay depict what dove season would be like in a combat zone? Do a whole bunch of them in a stage represent combat sporting clays? How far can we drift from where we came? What I am saying Relig is that they DON'T BELONG IN ANY BIG MATCH. They aren't consistent, the break calls are not consistent, and the launchers chew up tons of time while people TRY to make them consistent. If you like clays go to a clay sports range. One bad call can change the outcome of an entire division's finals. and IT CAN'T BE ARBITRATED...which is damn funy that you cant arbitrate an arbitrary target! Free open, ban clays! BTW I am very good at them so this isn't a sour grapes kind of thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Tischauser Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 (edited) Kurt's right but I like to hose clays so I say keep them. Make open OPEN!!! Edited October 31, 2011 by Jesse Tischauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outerlimits Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 I agree with ole weak hand-flying clays are gay. As an aside, what the hell is a texas star or polish plate rack supposed to simulate? Shooting felons off a ferris wheel at the county fair? Shoot, that sounds like a good stage briefing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted October 31, 2011 Author Share Posted October 31, 2011 I agree with ole weak hand-flying clays are gay. As an aside, what the hell is a texas star or polish plate rack supposed to simulate? Shooting felons off a ferris wheel at the county fair? Shoot, that sounds like a good stage briefing... Let's see an erratically moving target roughly the size of a head. I can't imagine what that would simulate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Tischauser Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 (edited) Double Tap! Edited October 31, 2011 by Jesse Tischauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Tischauser Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 (edited) Personally I dont care what the targets simulate. This ain't combat shooting any more like the original SOF matches. To me it's golf with guns. We could shoot at marshmallows for all I care. Edited October 31, 2011 by Jesse Tischauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 AHHHHH Jesse, it seems you cared a whole lot when we were shooting at soft balls! Do I need to copy all the stuff you said about that and post it?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outerlimits Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 I agree with ole weak hand-flying clays are gay. As an aside, what the hell is a texas star or polish plate rack supposed to simulate? Shooting felons off a ferris wheel at the county fair? Shoot, that sounds like a good stage briefing... Let's see an erratically moving target roughly the size of a head. I can't imagine what that would simulate. they do that in oregon? you really need to come to california more often... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocMedic Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Does a flipping clay depict what dove season would be like in a combat zone? Do a whole bunch of them in a stage represent combat sporting clays? How far can we drift from where we came? So your saying we should only simulate shooting "locks" and "hinges" then put the shotgun aside? I agree with this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Tischauser Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 AHHHHH Jesse, it seems you cared a whole lot when we were shooting at soft balls! Do I need to copy all the stuff you said about that and post it?? Ughhhh!!! The word softballs makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up. I guess marshmallows probably wouldn't be any good either. I still like stationary clays even though they are clearly not consistent. Today at the Arkansas section match a shooter in our squad shot a clay. It was sitting in one of those V shapes holders made out of angle iron. The clay was broken but there was no way for the shooter to see the hole as the golden BB only broke the back edge of the clay. The BB must have ricocheted off the angle iron hitting the back edge which the shooter had absolutely no way of seeing. The shooter was hoping for a single hole break and didnt reengage the clay because the stage was 9 rounds and he didn't want to reload. He got his hit but it was a great instance of the problem with clays that Kurt is talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sterling White Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 I've heard that sour grapes make some pretty good whine....I mean wine! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outerlimits Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Stationary clays are kool-u can engage them with one had without looking! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sterling White Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 I have actually seen that done recently! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Bond Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 First off I will say this, what the hell does a flying/flipping clay represent in our sport? I know white targets represent hostages/no shoots. I know that wig wags drop outs bobers, Max traps etc. represent fleeting targets and targets that appear and reappear from behind cover. I know that when I run through a building it simulates CQB and room clearing. Does a flipping clay depict what dove season would be like in a combat zone? Do a whole bunch of them in a stage represent combat sporting clays? How far can we drift from where we came? What I am saying Relig is that they DON'T BELONG IN ANY BIG MATCH. They aren't consistent, the break calls are not consistent, and the launchers chew up tons of time while people TRY to make them consistent. If you like clays go to a clay sports range. One bad call can change the outcome of an entire division's finals. and IT CAN'T BE ARBITRATED...which is damn funy that you cant arbitrate an arbitrary target! Free open, ban clays! BTW I am very good at them so this isn't a sour grapes kind of thing. It really all boils down to what you want USPSA matches to be. Do you want them to be just a game or do you desire it to be a game based in practical shooting applications? I would favor the latter but at this point, we have deviated so much from that path, especially in 3 gun, that if we wanted to return to the original path it would be painful. The entire concept of one pellet scores a clay is rather nutty in the scope of practical defensive shooting. Only in our sport could a single pellet score a clay but we would score a miss for only one slug on paper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
busyhawk Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 First off I will say this, what the hell does a flying/flipping clay represent in our sport? Wow, sounds like "someone" should start an IDPA 3 gun so we don't have to shoot at headless targets like IPSC has to contend with. Oh, and so when was the last time our LE or Mil brothers got to practice shooting targets without heads in like a shoot house? Oh, and I guess we should only use buckshot instead of this weak 7 1/2 shot too. Some of us see flying/flipping clays as a way to present a different target presentation that test yet another skill of engaging moving targets. Learn how to lead a target at different speeds and distances and what a passing shot is as well as sustained lead. What Mr. Bond says...Amen to a single pellet to a clay to neutralize vs miss on only one slug hit on a paper target, oh the irony! Save money and instead of clays on a post have KO steel (that looks like a head), with no shoots like the High Plains SG match and Blue Ridge Mt.. I do understand a clay you don't have the safety issue that you have with steel but a stage design is in the details. I will vote with my attendance to matches...I have yet to shoot a match I didn't enjoy but some more than others. Kurt...that should get you started:-) Let me put my NOMEX on now... RLTW, Busyhawk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benelli2 Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 I gotta roll with Kurt on this one too, flying clays are to inconsistent to be included in a major match, in presentation, and scoring. I think they are fun, I love to shoot them , but I have yet to be to a match that they were successfully applied, they are always an issue weather its raised or not. When matches are won and lost bu single digit points and overall placement determined by less, there is no room for these inconsistencies I too love shooting and we all appreciate the time and efforts of ROs like you Scott, giving so much to so many matches, but I also vote with my Match decisions when I run or design stages for a matcha nd I have never put one in a major match. happy Halloween Ya'll jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
busyhawk Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Don't get me wrong...I hate flipping clays too! My dig was Kurt's reference to clays being in other words not a tactical/practical target. I am still in awe that some target manufacture has not stepped up and designed a better/more consistent launcher. I only like clays to be launched like what trap and skeet shooters see and either the score keeper calls a hit or not. Of course weather conditions effect those too but WTH...I still like the challenge. Jeff, you are right with the reference to scoring and when deciding who will be the possible National champion...I'm on your side. RLTW, Scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benelli2 Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 If we get someone to make camo clays will they be tactical/ practical? Or perhaps they need to be incoming instead of going up, like a grenade coming in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 If we get someone to make camo clays will they be tactical/ practical? Or perhaps they need to be incoming instead of going up, like a grenade coming in How about these throw at the shooter. If you hit it, you go on. If you miss, you go elsewhere... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stlhead Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Flipped clays are inconsistent, we can all agree on that. But that is part of the appeal of them. Sometimes the damn things go up nice and high, and hang there for an eternity waiting to be smacked, sometimes the come right at you, other times they come up 6 feet broken to boot. I am with Kurt that they should not be a part of selecting a national champion, but I think they do belong in major matches. Let's not get rid of the fun here in the name of fair. Flying, flipped clays are not tactical targets, but I like shooting at them. I will pretend that they are tiny alien space craft wrecking havoc on our peaceful planet if that will make them more tactical, I promise. If you take away the flying and flipped clays from 3 gun you might as well get rid of the shotgun completely. Without flying targets there is no practical reason to have a shotgun other than breaching doors, and that gets old. So I vote for more flying clays, more rabbits, more flippers, just no flippers at nationals if it indeed is going to crown the national champ. I also vote that we start a new thread in the rules sub forum so that we can continue "discussing" the USPSA rules and our constructive ideas to improve them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Yes Scott, it should be Buckshot. As for the IDPA comment you have lost sight of the fact I was the M.D. for the last two S.O.F. matches, befor Robert K. Brown decided to call it quits...so yeah I DO look at it a bit differntly. I guess we could call aerial targets practice for celebratory gun fire that we commonly see these days. and since we now have Zombie targets I guess the flying clays could represnt flying Zombies like in Resident Evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 ...and since we now have Zombie targets I guess the flying clays could represnt flying Zombies like in Resident Evil. Flying zombies? That is just silly. Be realistic. They obviously represent a killer pterodactyl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted October 31, 2011 Author Share Posted October 31, 2011 My factor ammo from Walmart barely made major out if a Glock 35. Averaged 165.5. If u can barely make major with ammo off the shelf something is really wrong. So you went to a National Championship match with stuff you bought at Walmart and it almost didn't make power factor. There's something wrong here, but I think it's more someone showing up for a major match with untested equipment. If someone went to the pistol nationals with ammo that didn't meet declared power factor that's on the shooter. Why should this match be different? You shot a .40, which I'm assuming you don't for IMGA. You must have known you needed to make PF right? So here's another sticking point. Who is USPSA trying to attract with MultiGun? New members from IMGA matches, or give existing USPSA members another format to shoot. If it's the former, yes we should do away with PF in the matches. If it's the latter than it makes sense to have commonality with our most popular and relevant divisions. There are a lot of folks talking about the "explosion" of 3 gun matches. Even with the dramatic increase in major matches there are likly under 1000 people nationwide competing in these big matches. I know I see a lot of the same faces at each one I go to. What's missing from 3 Gun is the local match. It's harder to get people involved for their first match when you tell them it's 1000 miles away and has a $300.00 entry fee. Develop the structure for the local matches and hopefully two things will happen. More people will participate overall and some of the pressure on major matches might dissipate. (No guarantee on the latter but I've talked to a lot of people that would be happy to shoot 6 local's rather than one major they have to fly to.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgary Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 people that would be happy to shoot 6 local's rather than one major they have to fly to. That's me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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