Duane Thomas Posted March 15, 2004 Share Posted March 15, 2004 With all that "Everything in the Wilson catalog is so close to the edge weight-wise, any 'extras' on the gun will put it over" stuff - and I realize the guy who said that has realized it isn't true - I was kinda curious what my daily carry gun/IDPA & USPSA match piece, a Wilson Defensive Combat Pistol, weighs. This thing is an all-steel, 5" GM with adjustable sights, an ambi safety, full-length guide rod, a mag funnel - all the goodies. Threw it on a postal scale (with an empty mag in place, of course). It weighs 39.6 ounces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincent Posted March 15, 2004 Share Posted March 15, 2004 I've found that the CDP weight limit is generous for a 5" 1911 pistol. Like Duane's, my 5" steel 1911's also weight in at 39-40oz. Things to watch out for are heavy grips like rubber or rubber oversleeves and large steel magwells (especially those that are not hogged out). Some magazine and basepad combinations are also heavier than others. I recommend to shooters that they box check and weigh their gun/magazine combination as well as chrono their ammo before any major match. It's just not worth the risk that you forgot about some change and it costs you the match. It also adds to that match confidence that is so important to performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtypool40 Posted March 15, 2004 Share Posted March 15, 2004 so what's the wind up?? If I have an S_I built with a bushing barrel, a stirrup cut slide and some sexy grooves in the dustcover is it legal? What if I call it Tactical ? What if it is actually fitted and runs better than Wilson's cookie cutters? (ok, that was mean ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gun Geek Posted March 15, 2004 Author Share Posted March 15, 2004 Got this today from IDPA HQ. This is the message, the whole message, and nothing but the message (except I bolded one paragraph). Looks like the dust cover is NOT an issue. I provided back the weight I observed, as well as a picture of the TLR/RL and a link to Kimber's website. I have asked for a clear yes or no, that there will be no confusion. I may not be able to answer your question. The Kimber catalog doesn’t have the specifications that I need and I can’t find the specifications on the website either. For instance; there is only one place that mentions “TLE/RL”. That is under Custom pistols. So I guess the pistol you’re referring to is the Kimber Custom LTE/RL II. Unfortunately, there is no picture of the thing, so I don’t know if it has a full length dust cover or a regular dust cover. If this gun has a full length dust cover, it is NOT legal for IDPA competition. If it does not have a full length dust cover, then it needs to meet division criteria.According to the specifications on the Kimber website, the Kimber Custom TLE (not TLE/RL) weighs 38 oz. with an empty magazine in it. It does not mention the weight of the TLE/RL at all. I would be forced to assume that the TLE/RL weighs more, but I don’t know how much more. Unfortunately, I have to say that you will need to weigh the gun with an empty magazine in it. According to what you are telling me, this doesn’t have a full length dust cover. If the gun meets the weight limit, the dust cover will be fine. Just to let you know, Wilson Combat has a gun with a light rail on it (not the KZ). This gun can be used in IDPA competition, but only by having no magwell. With the magwell on it, it weighs too much. I suspect that will be the case with this gun. I wish I could answer this question for you, but I can’t. You will have to find someone around there that can weigh the gun. I wouldn’t suggest trooping through the grocery store to weigh the gun, either. Thanks, Dru Nichols IDPA Administrative Coordinator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted March 15, 2004 Share Posted March 15, 2004 I wouldn’t suggest trooping through the grocery store to weigh the gun, either. Awwwwwww. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtypool40 Posted March 16, 2004 Share Posted March 16, 2004 this is funny for more than one reason I guess.... I have regularly taken guns or parts into my favorite local ethnic deli, in paperbags, to weigh them on his digital scale. It's an Arabic Deli and the guy back there is very laid back, seems to know what's going on, and never bats an eye. Does he see a lot of that in there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gun Geek Posted March 18, 2004 Author Share Posted March 18, 2004 Got this today from HQ. It looks as if 1911 light rail guns are IDPA legal if: 1) The make the CDP weight restriction (41oz) 2) The dustcover is not full length From: Dru Nichols [mailto:dru@idpa.com] Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 1:08 PM Subject: RE: Kimber TLE/RL Acceptable for use in IDPA? Extended dust cover = full length dust cover. I think this takes care of the questions, doesn’t it? Just let me know if I didn’t get something answered. Thanks, Dru Nichols IDPA Administrative Coordinator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Burwell Posted March 18, 2004 Share Posted March 18, 2004 I read that as they are not legal. Dru says " extended=full length" meaning if the dust cover is extended at all it is considered full length. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gun Geek Posted March 18, 2004 Author Share Posted March 18, 2004 No! It means that if the dustcover is full length, then it is disallowed by the "Extended Dust Cover Rule" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gun Geek Posted March 19, 2004 Author Share Posted March 19, 2004 OK, Final word is YES! Railguns are legal if they meet the other criteria such as weight, etc... From: Dru Nichols [mailto:dru@idpa.com] Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 8:05 PM Subject: RE: Kimber TLE/RL Acceptable for use in IDPA? Yes. (Maybe if you get a one word answer, you won’t get more questions!) Thanks, Dru Nichols IDPA Administrative Coordinator -----Original Message----- Sent: March 18, 2004 3:59 PM To: dru@idpa.com Subject: RE: Kimber TLE/RL Acceptable for use in IDPA? Well I thought it took care of the questions, but several folks that I passed this on to read your note as saying the gun is illegal. They read literally and say that an extended dustcover is the same as a full length dustcover. Kind of like when you read "X=6", then X is 6. So let me test: Only a full length dust cover (goes all the way to the end of the slide) is considered to be an "Extended dust cover" and is therefore disallowed. The many light rail guns are legal if they meet all the other criteria for the specific division. Sorry we have to be so legalistic! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Perez Posted March 19, 2004 Share Posted March 19, 2004 So now a glock 21 is illegal? just kidding - thanks for keeping us current. Until that day, mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Forsyth Posted March 19, 2004 Share Posted March 19, 2004 I told you they did not care about the rail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larrys1911 Posted March 19, 2004 Share Posted March 19, 2004 Poor Dru, Next will be a guy with a S?I and lightrail with a dust cover thats 1/32" less than full length saying. "But I have the letter here saying its legal as long as its not FULL length and this one is .03125 less than FULL length. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtypool40 Posted March 19, 2004 Share Posted March 19, 2004 .....or some guy rightfully pointing out that Glocks, among others, meet the IDPA BANNED definition of a full length or extended dust cover. They really didn't think that one out. They shouldv'e just gone with weight and box. Their rules sound like the Cali-ban on ugly guns!!! For instance I cannot see any reason why an alloy full length DC gun, like one of the STI Tacticals, should be illegal in IDPA. Sorry, I'll stop being logical.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriss Grube Posted March 19, 2004 Share Posted March 19, 2004 Holy crap, just shut up and shoot already. It is the shooter not the gun. Give TJ or TGO a Jennings and they are still going to stomp you even if you have a extended dustcover/rail/whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snokid Posted March 19, 2004 Share Posted March 19, 2004 Maybe here's what the rule book should of read... As you know I had a falling out with ipsc so no sti or svi guns will be allowed. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted March 19, 2004 Share Posted March 19, 2004 snokid WHOA MOMMA!!!!! Let's not get personal, and cast rocks or cause disssention among the troups. You will get spanked... ROTFLMAO!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Murphy Posted March 19, 2004 Share Posted March 19, 2004 .....or some guy rightfully pointing out that Glocks, among others, meet the IDPA BANNED definition of a full length or extended dust cover. Doesn't apply to the Stock Service Pistol Divison, other criteria apply. Full Length dust cover provision is for ESP and CDP divisions. Ted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew_Mink Posted March 19, 2004 Share Posted March 19, 2004 If IDPA was designed to be practical, then why isn't a full length dust cover gun allowed? Some people carry them, I personally know a couple off the top of my head. They have carry holsters, etc, making them 'practical'. If they are truly carried, then IDPA needs to allow them. It should be up to the individual to decide if they want a gun that heavy or not. Because any shooter is going to decide whether they want a heavier gun to dampen recoil, or a lighter gun for faster transitions. And the SAME reasoning applies to what you carry. So now the people that carry a full length dust cover gun now has to buy a short dust cover gun just to play IDPA, when all they wanted in the first place was to shoot their honest to God carry gun. Sure, some people will want the heavier gun to compete with, because they perceive an advantage. I say more power to em. Because on the street you are going to look for the same perceived advantages. I also think the same about ghost ring sights. Some people use them, they should be allowed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geezer-lock Posted March 19, 2004 Share Posted March 19, 2004 Mostly the rules are trying to prevent an equipment race. The full length dust cover is just one of many items that are not allowed by the rules of competition. Many police departments issue the “C” models of Glock guns and these are part of the disallowed equipment also. There is nothing unreasonable in any of these restrictions. Every form of sport from golf to racing has barred equipment that “some people use”. geezer-lock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew_Mink Posted March 19, 2004 Share Posted March 19, 2004 But my point is that IDPA bills itself as the 'practical' shooting sport, and I won't deny that. Then they pass rules that bar certain guns that people actually carry. It doesn't make sense. If they truly wish to test the shooter and his gear, it's all in the stage design anyway. Allow people to use C model glocks, then have a dark house stage of fire. I guarantee those people would reassess their carry gear. Allow the use of full length dust cover guns, then design a stage that involves a lot of swinging from target to target. Those are only examples, of course. But my point is, if people wish to use guns that they perceive gives them an actual advantage, wouldn't that carry over to their street gear? And I don't buy the fact that they are trying to prevent the equipment race. The equipment race is thriving on carry guns and gear as we speak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snokid Posted March 19, 2004 Share Posted March 19, 2004 .....or some guy rightfully pointing out that Glocks, among others, meet the IDPA BANNED definition of a full length or extended dust cover. Doesn't apply to the Stock Service Pistol Divison, other criteria apply. Full Length dust cover provision is for ESP and CDP divisions. Ted I was just at Gander mountain looking at glock 3rd gen guns and it seems like none of them would be legal in esp, or cdp. they all sported a full lenght dust cover, but the did have the light rail. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinpagano Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 I have been shooting IDPA for 5 years now. I have been a dutiful member all of that time. I love the fact that this sport was born and the premise it was born on. I for the life of me cannot figure out why there is so much turmoil at HQ about the rules. Until they come up with a more simple way to regulate holsters and divisions this turmoil will never stop and I mean NEVER!!. Divisions could be regulated by weight, power factor, caliber and trigger design. For Instance CDP Must fit in the box with mag in place must be under 40oz. 8 rds in mag maximum notch and post sights Etc. Why would a guy with a 34 oz STI have an advantage over a 39oz Wilson. Except that they might be able to weight the gun in a different way to help tame recoil. That to me is possibly a better design for IDPA and for a Carry gun. WHY IS THIS SUCH A BIG ISSUE. (by the way I have never owned and sti or svi or any other wide body pistol in a 1911). Holsters For Instance. The holster and mag pouches must be worn behind center line. The slide area of holster must be touching the hip. The frame of the pistol must be touching your waist or side of body. With holster on and gun in holster the trigger guard must reside in the same area of your belt or above. NO muzzle forward cant. Why do we care if a larger guy needs to put a shim in his paddle holster so he can get to his weapon as fast as a thinner guy. as long as the gun is touching his side and his hip. and is concealable. Geez and I didnt even have to go through a holster approval process. ( I wonder how much money I just saved IDPA). I dont pretend to have all the answers just suggestions. I do appreciate all the work that the BOD has done. The thing I have not appreciated is the condescending attitude that I have been met with at times in the past. This does seem to have gotten much better. I just started shooting USPSA. I hope they do not start a holster list over there. Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larrys1911 Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 Matt. Thats kinda like asking about, not allowing 9X23 to be Major in IPSC Limited. Or loading a 10 round mag with 11 rounds and chambering the first one putting you in open Or its a game lets allow 500 mm mags. Besides they have to draw a line in the sand somewhere or someone will show up with an IPSC Open rig and claim they carry it everyday. We both know a guy that used to carry a Glock with a Dr sight on it but that doesnt mean I think it shoud be allowed in IDPA. I dont want to go down that road, its been tried. There has to be a line somewhere. If you truely want to shoot what you carry, the way you carry it in IDPA just shoot for no score. OR shoot it in IPSC Larry P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OpnBlstr Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 ...someone will show up with an IPSC Open rig and claim they carry it everyday... Dang, someone beat me to it! I was gonna shoot RESP this year too - that's Really Enhanced Service Pistol. We can't carry in Kansas anyway so we should probably show up at the match and shoot our finger pistols while screaming BANG at the targets. When I weigh my CDP finger pistol it is only the hand or the forearm too? Seriously though. If I were shooting CDP (I shoot SSP) and someone showed up with a light rail pistol it wouldn't bother me a bit. There's a lot more alterations that can be done to a CDP pistol to make it more competitive than add another ounce of metal to it. A factory tri-topped SVI slide that has less reciprocating mass combined with a 12/13 pound recoil spring and VV310 powder makes a LOT more difference on sight recovery than some dead weight on the dustcover. Give it some lightening (er...cocking serration) cuts, run an aluminum plug, shave a few thousandths off the slide width, and it only gets better. Then a better shooter with a Norinco is gonna come along and stomp ya' anyway - 'cause he spent his extra money on practice rounds instead of the latest whizbang stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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