TRG65 Posted February 1, 2003 Share Posted February 1, 2003 There seems to be a lot of concern from some members about the FTDR being a detractor from IDPA. Most of the FTDR reasons are for safety and the ones that aren't would be impossible calls in my opinion, because the SO isn't telepathic and can't know a shooters reasons. I have re-read the FTDR section, and as a SO myself, I have a hard time believing I would actually give one out except for a gross safety violation and then I would probably DQ. In my SO training it was stressed to always give the shooter the benefit of the doubt. For example, I would score based on missed targets (if he ran out of ammo before the end) and or giving relevant procedurals. I have personally bungled the same thing on the same stage more than once, and it wasn't intentional either time. Could people please relate their experiences with the FTDR, either that they have given, been given or seen given? Thanks Seth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Murphy Posted February 1, 2003 Share Posted February 1, 2003 FTDR's can be earned for dropping an unloaded handgun. I've seen ftdr's earned by people who dump rounds in order to go to slidelock at the ideal time (98 nats stage 1) I've seen FTDR's earned by people who download ammunition to go to slide lock at a more opportune time. Or for switching between 7 and 8 round magazines for their 1911's depending on the stage requirements. Or repeatedly topping off hi-caps instead of loading to the division maximum. Or screaming at SO's when they did not like a procedural or other call. Or at a major match going over to the stats computer and shuffling around the score sheets. Or getting caught with knowingly illegal mod (like a harts mercury recoil rod) Sometimes the md may do a FTDR and have the fella remove the rod instead of a DQ. (actually kinder when you think of it) "making a travesty of the sport by means of illegal equipment" Let's say thereis one last steel target that is to be engaged from a point 10 yards away from all the other targets. You figure the time spent running over there and shooting it will be longer than the 7.5 seconds a -5 FTN will add to your score. So you don't even bother going to engage it. That would be a FTDR by most folks standards. There are a host of others but at this point the thread would become a "how to game idpa" thread, best not said I think. Some MD's give them out like candy at holloweeen. Other's dont. It also depends on the type of shooters you have. I've only ever issued 2, both were for dropping unloaded handguns. And I don't recall many if any FTDR's given out at nats lately. Usually when someone gets one the whole peanut gallery is talking about it. Ted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted February 2, 2003 Share Posted February 2, 2003 Just about everything you mention sounds like blatantly justificable FTDR stuff to me. I'm a bit puzzled by the stats shack/shuffling score sheets thing. What's the problem there? Also a little unclear on how dropping an unloaded gun is an FTDR. As long as the shooter doesn't pick up the gun, and has the SO do it for them, isn't that already covered under the rules - and not an FTDR? I always figured FTDRs were for blatant cheating or unsafe actions, and the foregoing doesn't qualify as either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufus The Bum Posted February 2, 2003 Share Posted February 2, 2003 I've seen a guy get a FTDR for arguing and holding up a match about the way a guy shot the stage. MD gave him 2 options, which were to file a protest at the end of the match, or he could go home, he chose neither, so he got a FTDR for unsportsmanlike conduct. The argument stopped there and thankfully he stopped shooting. This guy was one of those types that was classified Marksman, but beat the sharpshooters all the time. Another example I've seen of a FTDR is when a shooter just ignores all cover, reloading in the open when cover is readily available and basically for just ignoring the principals of IDPA. The FTDR is something Bill Wilson dangles over the competitors to keep the gamers in check. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Murphy Posted February 2, 2003 Share Posted February 2, 2003 I'm a bit puzzled by the stats shack/shuffling score sheets thing. What's the problem there? saw it at a state match once. There was concern that people may try to alter results so they posted a sign that said shooters were not to approach the stats table without permission under penalty of ftdr. Also a little unclear on how dropping an unloaded gun is an FTDR. As long as the shooter doesn't pick up the gun, and has the SO do it for them, isn't that already covered under the rules It is. The rules say that dropping an unloaded handgun "can" result in a FTDR. It is in the beginning of the rulebook under Gun Handling Issues. In the case of one I issued, the shooter blamed the Safety officer for his dropping the gun. Seems the SO's shouts of "Cover" and "Move" scared the shooter and made him miss the holster when he tried to holster after the Unload and Show clear phase. The other time I issued a FTDR for dropping an unloaded handgun the guy was trying to act cool by doing a cowboy type reholster, missed the holster, and it hit the deck. I issued a ftdr because I thought it was grossly negligent and I wanted the other shooters to not try to do it. FWIW, I've also issued a procedural for the same offense, given the nature of the oopsie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmaass Posted February 2, 2003 Share Posted February 2, 2003 It seems the way to "game" IDPA is to become an SO or MD. These are the "Gamers" in IDPA, issuing (or threatening to issue) FTDR penalties in order to keep everyone in mechanical lockstep, sometimes simply for match expediency. "Some MD's give them out like candy at holloweeen. Other's dont. It also depends on the type of shooters you have." Give me a rulebook instead! Wouldn't the NFL or NHL be fun leagues if the officials there had an vaguely defined penalty they could apply at will, based on anything from an unhappy personal life to an inherent sadistic streak? IDPA shooters: if you owned the sport, would you retain FTDR? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaughn leayme Posted February 2, 2003 Share Posted February 2, 2003 Maybe it's time to start up a national data base of SO/MD's in IDPA. Keep record of all the decisions and use it to winnow out those who are overly abusive of the power that they have or to improve or change overly vague or abused rules. Only a suggestion, mind you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufus The Bum Posted February 3, 2003 Share Posted February 3, 2003 Shooting a stage the way it wasn't designed and unsportsmanlike conduct would be the only reason I'd give a FTDR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhgtyre Posted February 3, 2003 Share Posted February 3, 2003 If the stage designer missed something that isn't the shooters fault. Giving out an FTDR for that squelches the shooters creativity and makes a statement that there is only one "right" way to do things. -ld Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Murphy Posted February 3, 2003 Share Posted February 3, 2003 Quote: from shaughn leayme on 7:16 pm on Feb. 2, 2003 Maybe it's time to start up a national data base of SO/MD's in IDPA. Pretty good way to make sure people don't hurry up and volunteer to SO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Murphy Posted February 3, 2003 Share Posted February 3, 2003 Quote: from jmaass on 12:41 pm on Feb. 2, 2003 "Some MD's give them out like candy at holloweeen. Other's dont. It also depends on the type of shooters you have." Give me a rulebook instead! What does that mean? There is a rulebook and when people violate the spirit of the sport, they earn a FTDR, as per this rulebook. I've been to clubs where a large majority of the shooters cheat and whine. Those MD's seem to issue more FTDR's. In 5 years shooting IDPA at 6 local clubs I have seen less than 5 FTDR's handed out. It does not seem to be abused or overused. Of those 5, only 1 was in bad form. The shooter was given a ftdr for not shooting from low cover. Fella had bad knees and thought it best not to kneel. I thought a procedural was more in call. How many of you people have actually received a FTDR unfairly? Or are you just IDPA bashing? Most the IDPA shooters I've shot with have had no beef with the FTDR. Usually the only ones who object to the more subjective nature of some of IDPA's calls (cover, ftdr, etc) are those that are pulling out all the stops to win, and hate the way IDPA does business with it's rulebook. They would prefer a list of "if it's not forbidden, it's approved" rather than having the principles of IDPA being given in such a vague manner. The shooter should be given the benefit of the doubt and FTDR's should be quite rare. In the past 10 major matches I shot no one earned a FTDR. I do not see it as something being given out unfairly or often. What it is however, is a very substancial obstacle to those who want to backhandedly thwart the rules in order to win either because they enjoy doing it that way or to compensate for lack of ability. Those are the folks who seem most frustrated with the FTDR. To that end, the founders of the sport hit a home run. Ted (Edited by Ted Murphy at 12:04 pm on Feb. 3, 2003) (Edited by Ted Murphy at 12:08 pm on Feb. 3, 2003) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFD Posted February 3, 2003 Share Posted February 3, 2003 I would throw the FTDR in the dumpster where it belongs. I equate it to "we don't know how to write a rule book so we made this stupid FTDR thing up". Since I shoot IPSC most of the time, I'm usually good for a speed load every once in awhile. While this breaks more than one known rule concerning reloading, depending on the SO, I can either get the procedurals or a FTDR. To me, there's no stinking way I can hope to game a stage by speed loading and opening myself up to the procedurals that are sure to happen, yet I'll get a FTDR for "gaming the stage", or basically cheating. I don't bitch or whine, other than to myself 1/2 second after I speed load (making the infraction very easy to spot), and at the end of the COF I just wait to see which option they're going to use. So far it appears that if I get an anti-IPSC SO, then I get a FTDR. An IPSC neutral SO just gives me the procedurals. I once got a FTDR for shooting from the right side of a barricade when the verbal stage description supposedly stated to shoot from the left side. The written stage description didn't specify and I never heard the verbal instruction. I believe I would have gotten a procedural except that I had the "nerve" to point out that the written stage procedure didn't specify which side to shoot from. The SO immediately informed me this "wasn't IPSC" and gave me a FTDR for "gaming the stage". As our club's USPSA MD, with some SOs I apparently rate a FTDR just for showing up. Needless to say, I don't show up anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shipster Posted February 3, 2003 Share Posted February 3, 2003 Quote: from Ted Murphy on 10:12 am on Feb. 3, There is a rulebook and when people violate the spirit of the sport, they earn a FTDR, as per this rulebook. Ted I think you just quoted the rule that people find hard to swallow. It's the violate the spirit of the sport part that is to subjective, and people don't like being told that they can't do something that way just because someone else defines it as violating the spirit of the sport. My two cents worth. (Edited by Shipster at 6:26 pm on Feb. 3, 2003) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted February 3, 2003 Share Posted February 3, 2003 Ted the FTDR was enacted because the guys who wrote the rules knew they would forget something and the gamers would pound them with it till the next time the rule book came out, so they gave themselves a catch all. Now they don't know how to remove it without getting egg on themselves, and admitting it was a poor idea in the first place. I believe in following the rules to the "T". But if it isn't in the rules it gets to me that they want to penalize you. I don't go to any competition to try to finish 233rd or 15th or 2nd. I want to win the damn thing, outright. not just my pistol division, I want to win the thing HOA. I think Ron Ankeny said it best in another topic, "It is not gaming, it is just not being sheep." That attitude does not lend its self to being told, "No that is not covered in the rules, but that is the way we are going to do it." You said that the founders of the sport hit a home run, better look again, seems more like the infield fly rule to me, where they have the batter/runner either way. Either you have a rule book comprehensive enough to cover what needs to be covered or no rules at all . You can't have just a few and leave the rest subjective and fall under the FTDR, not if you want the game to continue and prosper. Take a good look just at another topic on this forum. something doesn't go on for 15 pages if something is not inherently wrong with it. Sure you will have different opinions, but I think the length of this topic and the passion with which people discuss both sides indicate a basic flaw in the manner in which IDPA has chosen to set up the rules, or lack of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Murphy Posted February 3, 2003 Share Posted February 3, 2003 Quote: from tightloop on 4:27 pm on Feb. 3, 2003 Ted the FTDR was enacted because the guys who wrote the rules knew they would forget something and the gamers would pound them with it till the next time the rule book came out, so they gave themselves a catch all. Now they don't know how to remove it without getting egg on themselves, and admitting it was a poor idea in the first place. Actually, you are wrong about that one. Some fella running matches down south came up with the FTDR quite a while before the Columbia Conference in 96. ** The original BOD liked the concept and added it to the mix. The FTDR is not a stopgap or a whoops, it is a fundamential philosophy of the sport. Ted ** About a year ago I got to sit down with the North Carolina Area Coordinator and he told me the story. Also, I've spent enough time with Founder Walt Rauch to know that he believes in the FTDR still. (Edited by Ted Murphy at 6:27 pm on Feb. 3, 2003) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted February 3, 2003 Share Posted February 3, 2003 Spirit wasn't enough even for Judeo-Christians; they had to have it codified in a rulebook. (Thou shalt not do these ten things.) Then they knew exactly what they could get away with without having to worry about somebody tossing lightning bolts down on their heads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Murphy Posted February 3, 2003 Share Posted February 3, 2003 Quote: from tightloop on 4:27 pm on Feb. 3, 2003 . You can't have just a few and leave the rest subjective and fall under the FTDR, not if you want the game to continue and prosper. But it is prospering Take a good look just at another topic on this forum. something doesn't go on for 15 pages if something is not inherently wrong with it. Sure you will have different opinions, but I think the length of this topic and the passion with which people discuss both sides indicate a basic flaw in the manner in which IDPA has chosen to set up the rules, or lack of them. FWIW I see a bunch of pissed off people bitching about the FTDR, and a cross section of an internet chat room is hardly a Movement. I see a hell of a lot more people shooting IDPA matches. IDPA's membership is still growing and the clubs are still expanding. There are certainly things wrong with the sport, but nowhere is it as bad as you few folks think. You are either victims of a few bad clubs or a collection of the biggest whiners in the sport. It's funny but myself and many of the other area coordinators/Safety Officer instructors are writing a new rulebook. While we are debating practically every aspect of the rules, NO ONE has suggested we do away with the FTDR. Ted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Murphy Posted February 3, 2003 Share Posted February 3, 2003 Quote: from Erik Warren on 6:26 pm on Feb. 3, 2003 Spirit wasn't enough even for Judeo-Christians; they had to have it codified in a rulebook. (Thou shalt not do these ten things.) Then they knew exactly what they could get away with without having to worry about somebody tossing lightning bolts down on their heads. Yes, but the Bible contradicts the hell out of itself, doesn't it? What you folks fail to understand is the LIKE the FTDR and it is not going away unless a SIGNIFICANT portion of the membership petitions the board for a change. So go write a petition if you want to affect change. Good luck Ted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaughn leayme Posted February 4, 2003 Share Posted February 4, 2003 Quote: from Ted Murphy on 8:08 am on Feb. 3, 2003 Quote: from shaughn leayme on 7:16 pm on Feb. 2, 2003Maybe it's time to start up a national data base of SO/MD's in IDPA. Pretty good way to make sure people don't hurry up and volunteer to SO Do these people have some reason, not to want to be on the data base? Could it be that they are afraid that thier bias might be tracked and commented on? (probably a minority) This same data base could be used to track the performance and since all decisions/rulings would be logged, it could also point out rule changes or modifications that could be made to make the sport better. I can't see how anyone would find that to be a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted February 4, 2003 Share Posted February 4, 2003 I am one who believes in the FTDR "when it is used correctly". It actually gives the shooter MORE leaway in how to shoot the stage. There aren't as many rules to break that way. For those of you who have been given FTDR just because you are an IPSC shooter or have seen large numbers of FTDR given out, would you share SO names and club names? The rules say that very few FTDR or penalties should be given out if the stage is correctly designed. If we can learn who these bad people are, then we can send their Area Coordinator around to chat with them. HQ wants people to have a good time at IDPA matches. Bill Nesbitt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Murphy Posted February 4, 2003 Share Posted February 4, 2003 Do these people have some reason, not to want to be on the data base? I don't know exactly, but I imagine some would object for many reasons that you would object to a national database of all shooters, there for all (like the govt ) to read. The old "you must have something to hide!" schtick works in many ways. The gun grabbers have been using it for years to justify a gun registry. I suppose you could apply the same logic here; "If you are a good match official you would have no reason to want off the list!" The day anyone decides to catalog and identify myself or any of my line dogs is the day I unaffiliate my club. Want to start a list? Do it. See where it goes. What you guys really should be doing if you have indeed been screwed by a MD is do something more positive than complain on the internet. Like Bill said. Write HQ or the area coordinator. Effect change. I really do not see these kinds of FTDR's given out in the Eastern Pa area. i've not seen them when i've traveled down the east coast to other ranges. We are however, blessed in my area with a bunch of SO's who are serious not only about the rulebook, but about a fair application of those same rules. Come up our way and see sometime. http://www.eastontacticalops.com http://www.brcv-gun.org http://www.eastontacticalops.com/doubleaction I don't think you will receive an FTDR at these clubs unless you really EARN it. As far as the necessity of the FTDR we will have to agree to disagree here. Ted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaughn leayme Posted February 4, 2003 Share Posted February 4, 2003 Given the ability of computers and cross referencing of records, I would be very surprised if there wasn't a rather large list in existence already. (illegal or otherwise) Any club that has a membership list has a data base for the government to look at. There are many ways to build a data base and one way is to buy companies mailing lists, especially if it should be one that deals in shooting equipment and supplies and then cross reference that data with other lists to get a more complete picture of people interests. (and maybe yours in particular) Credit card transactions are a good reference database, too. But, each to thier own. I just feel that if you want to improve the image and the quality , then some kind of checks and balances will have to be implemented and the only way to do that is to start a database, which can be referenced and help to determine exactly where you need to do the fixing. To the others, sorry for the thread drift. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted February 4, 2003 Share Posted February 4, 2003 Ted Way to go, you are as biased one way as I am the other!!! It is good to have strong opinions, long as you can fade the heat for having them. Keep on truckin'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted February 4, 2003 Share Posted February 4, 2003 "Since I shoot IPSC most of the time, I'm usually good for a speed load every once in awhile. While this breaks more than one known rule concerning reloading, depending on the SO, I can either get the procedurals or a FTDR." Even after you've let that old mag hit the deck, you still have an option. If you bend down and retrieve it before continuing on, then all is copacetic. No harm, no foul. (No procedural.) I agree that an FTDR for an honest mistake "in the heat of the moment" is a bit much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mayonaise Posted February 4, 2003 Share Posted February 4, 2003 The BOD knew exactly what they were doing with the FTDR. Ken, Bill and Walt know full well how the games work. FTDRs are and should be very rare. It's easier to use the procedural and probably DQ than it is to FTDR someone who knows the rules. It's a gamer rule for the most part as I see it. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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