Rule 5.2.7.2 Limited Division

[Gregg K]

While at a match we had a roving RO pull into our bay in a golf cart and announced to our squad that in case anyone wanted to know that there is a rule 5.2.7.2 that states that "competitors must not be permitted to commence a course of fire wearing a holster with the heel of the butt of the handgun below the top of the belt."

It was obvious that he was actually speaking to me and meant it as a friendly warning. I admit that I am not near as familiar as I should be with the rulebook. I looked up 5.2.7.2 and it has an exception as specified in Appendix D. I was shooting revolver so when I look in Appendix D I see that under Appendix D6 number 12 says that there is No restriction on position of holster and other equipment and number 20 that says that there is No restrictions for holsters.

The way I read this, a revolver doesn't need to comply with the rule to have the heel of the butt of the handgun at or above the top of the belt. What do you think?

[Fullauto_Shooter]

I've never even heard of a roving RO, but it sounds like this one has too much time on his hands.

[Pat Miles]

Per the rules and appendixes you are correct. As the RO gave his incorrect warning in a friendly way you might take him aside at the next match and state your findings in a friendly way. Then , if necessary, have a friendly discussion regarding your differences.

I would suggest that you take some time and read the rule book. You can benefit from knowing the rules.

Pat

[Pat Miles]

I've never even heard of a roving RO, but it sounds like this one has too much time on his hands.

Yes, some clubs are blessed with an excess of RO's which is a good thing as I see it. Not every RO can cite the rule book chapter and verse. A good portion of them make mistakes which is not to say that they have too much time on their hands. The gentleman did it in a friendly way and hopefully he will accept the OP's findings in a friendly way. Don't be too critical of an extra RO.

Pat

[Gregg K]

Just to be clear, I don't know the gentleman or what his official duties were at this match. It was a somewhat major match and was out of town so I won't get to talk to him again. He was friendly and only meant well. I was glad to have someone try to help. I have been wrong before and have no bad feelings toward him for doing what he thought was right. It has prompted me to get more familiar with the rules and fully admit that I need to know them better.

[WDB]

Or better yet "go to school" and get certified yourself.

[Gary Stevens]

Item 12 in Appendix D6 applies to the holster and allied equipment. This means you can have it anywhere on your belt, as there are no restrictions as in Production and Single Stack. It has nothing to do with the gun and it being below the top of the belt.

5.2.7.2 prohibits any gun with the heel of the gun below the top of the belt, except for females in all divisions except Production and Single Stack which is covered in 5.2.3.1

Gary

[ima45dv8]

He may have been right. The exceptions are for where on the belt it is attached (front to back, as defined by E3), and can permit a grip below the top of the belt if the MD approves it as a duty rig for military or law enforcement.

=========

Having lost all that weight, Gary types faster than I do.

[Gregg K]

This is the wording of 5.2.7.2

5.2.7.2 A holster with the heel of the butt of the handgun below the top

of the belt, except as specified in Appendix D, or otherwise indicated

in Rule 5.2.8.

What are the exceptions in Appendix D mentioned if the position of the holster has nothing to do with the heel of the butt?

It appears that the only exception is a more restrictive placement of the gun in Single Stack in relation to the top of the belt, except for females.

It would appear that under no circumstance can anyone in any division have the heel of the butt below the top of the belt.

Edited November 9, 2010 by Gregg K

[Gary Stevens]

That is correct, no guns below the top of the belt, with some female, LEO, and Military exceptions.

Edited November 9, 2010 by Gary Stevens

[Gregg K]

Thanks for the replys. It looks like the advice given was 100% correct. I'm glad the advice was given and I have a better understanding of it now. Time to do a more serious reading of the rules to find out what else I don't know.

[ima45dv8]

It appears that the only exception is a more restrictive placement of the gun in Single Stack in relation to the top of the belt, except for females.

Single Stack and Production.

It would appear that under no circumstance can anyone in any division have the heel of the butt below the top of the belt.

Other than the exceptions listed (MIL and LEO, certian chromosomes), that's my understanding, also.

[BritinUSA]

That is correct, no guns below the top of the belt, with some female, LEO, and Military exceptions.

I think that statement should be in the appendix. In some divisions it states:

Holster Restrictions :No

I think it should clarify that this refers to TYPES/POSITION of HOLSTER and then add another line indicating that the heel of the gun must be above the belt. That way all the division requirements are in the same place.... just a suggestion.

[mhs]

That is correct, no guns below the top of the belt, with some female, LEO, and Military exceptions.

I may not be reading this right, but I see 5.2.3.1 as allowing females to wear their belts lower, but I don't see where it allows them to have the heel of the butt below their belts.

[Pat Miles]

Item 12 in Appendix D6 applies to the holster and allied equipment. This means you can have it anywhere on your belt, as there are no restrictions as in Production and Single Stack. It has nothing to do with the gun and it being below the top of the belt.

5.2.7.2 prohibits any gun with the heel of the gun below the top of the belt, except for females in all divisions except Production and Single Stack which is covered in 5.2.3.1

Gary

I will stand corrected but between Rule 5.2.7.2 and Appendix D6-12 they are very poorly worded rules. The word "except" in 5.2.7.2 and absolutely no clarifying verbiage as to what #12 in any of the classification appendixes is supposed to actually refer to leaves a helluva lot to be desired. This could have been avoided by using a few more words in either the rule and/or appendix.

Pat

[staudacher]

While at a match we had a roving RO pull into our bay in a golf cart and announced to our squad that in case anyone wanted to know that there is a rule 5.2.7.2 that states that "competitors must not be permitted to commence a course of fire wearing a holster with the heel of the butt of the handgun below the top of the belt."

It was obvious that he was actually speaking to me and meant it as a friendly warning. I admit that I am not near as familiar as I should be with the rulebook. I looked up 5.2.7.2 and it has an exception as specified in Appendix D. I was shooting revolver so when I look in Appendix D I see that under Appendix D6 number 12 says that there is No restriction on position of holster and other equipment and number 20 that says that there is No restrictions for holsters.

The way I read this, a revolver doesn't need to comply with the rule to have the heel of the butt of the handgun at or above the top of the belt. What do you think?

He was the Range Master not a RO and I don't think he was directing the comment specifically at you as I believe he pointed that out to several if not all the squads since there were numerous competitors there with improperly configured holsters.

[Gary Stevens]

Now that I have been "outed" I was trying to educate and inform as the match was near to being over and I didn't want to hammer folks that late in the game. I am sure I will be chastised for not just bumping them to Open Division, but so be it.

Gary

Edited November 11, 2010 by Gary Stevens

[staudacher]

Now that I have been "outed"

Sorry!!

[Gary Stevens]

Just kiddding.

[Chuck Anderson]

Bad Gary, baaaaaaaad Gary. There now you've been chastised.

[Gregg K]

Well I was happy to have received the education. The only reason I wondered if there was an exception is because of all the shooters that I have seen at different matches with their guns carried low. Now I know that it is not allowed. I went to my first Nationals this year and out of all the RO's there, no one mentioned the rule about the heel of the butt. As in other gun games, just because you went to the Nationals doesn't mean that your gear is right.

Gary, since you have been outed, let me thank you for the education and sharing your knowledge of the rules.

[Gary Stevens]

Bad Gary, baaaaaaaad Gary. There now you've been chastised.

Thanks Chuck, I needed that

[d_striker]

5.2.7.2 A holster with the heel of the butt of the handgun below the top

of the belt, except as specified in Appendix D, or otherwise indi-

cated in Rule 5.2.8.

Limited Division in Appendix D states that there are no holster restrictions. Does this mean that the heel of the butt may be below the top of the belt in Limited?

[Dwight Springthorpe]

5.2.7.2 still covers all guns. Appendix D is used to further restrict the placement as in Single Stack Appendix D5.

Sorry, but no tactical tie down thigh holsters, except for duty rigs.

[sperman]

This was discussed just a few weeks ago.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=117020