NewColonial Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 (edited) I was reviewing the videos of the Monster Match at http://practicalshooting.posterous.com/mondays-match-videos-2 and thinking how fun that seems. Then I saw the last video on that page. It's also at Watch until :33. Are those spectators down range? Wow. Edit. Apparently BE forum embeds the video. Cool. And I just notice people at the left side of the berm too. Edited November 2, 2010 by NewColonial Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhop Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 (edited) this is the classic example of why video is not allowed in uspsa rules arbs, obviously they are on a different stage and aren't downrange the targets are close to the180 probably, if you think this is bad definitely don't go to double tap Edited November 2, 2010 by mhop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 I'm confused as to where the people are? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memphis Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 We we shooting the CoF in "pits" with berms down both sides and the back. While you were technically shooting in the direction of other people, the berms are pretty high. I would estimate that someone would need to be about 25' tall and be standing directly on the other side of the berm. I felt perfectly safe and I'm not much for having guns pointed at me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewColonial Posted November 2, 2010 Author Share Posted November 2, 2010 mhop, Okay. I'll take your word for it. That's looks awfully close at :36 in the video. I guess looks can be deceiving. I'll stand corrected. :-) Video isn't allowed at USPSA? I never knew that. I've seen a lot of vids of USPSA matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codycoyote Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 (edited) The "spectator" in the red shirt downrange is a dummy. Literally. As to the people seen in the video off to the right and left, you have to take into account the FOV (field of view) of the camera. They are probably well past the 180. I get asked these questions on my videos a lot, and most people don't realize that some of these hat cams have a 100* FOV. What looks like 10 feet further would be the shooters is really quite a bit beyond the 180. we've all been parallel to a muzzle at some point. That is why we have the 180 rule. If you are standing at the 200 or 230 mark, your as safe as anywhere on the range. Wasn't aware USPSA didn't allow video. When did this take effect? Edited November 2, 2010 by Codycoyote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewColonial Posted November 2, 2010 Author Share Posted November 2, 2010 (edited) Thanks Codycoyote. I learned something today. Always glad when that happens! Edited November 2, 2010 by NewColonial Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhop Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 the video comment was saying that it isnt allowed in rules arbs or calls that ro's made, one person sees one thing and another sees nothing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XD Niner Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 The wide angle lens used on the hat cam is distorting the view. Those people are standing outside of the bay and well behind the 180 which is parallel but downrange of the shadow cast by the shed roof. The match was run per the USPSA safety rules. It was an oustanding match and very safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LChico Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 Video evidence is not allowed for USPSA when there is an Arbitration committee (or disputes on the rules). The previous posters are all saying "arbs" as an abbreviated version of "arbitration." It is confusing jargon for some newer shooters. It is completely okay to use video cameras & post video from USPSA matches. Linda Chico (L-2035) Columbia SC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 Yes, it does look a bit spooky, but I wouldn't put any real concern into it based on that. As has been stated, the camera lens gives a different perspective from what you would observe in person. Having said that (code for, "BUT"), I have had some trepidation with similar stage presentations. I'm not worried with experienced shooters engaging targets that far uprange in a bay, where casual observers are in line-of-sight,. I worry about someone who might be new/nervouus wanking their trigger so bad they could maybe send one into the crowd. And those folks are at every match I've ever attended, even if it was me...a while ago. I know it limits the stage design somewhat but I prefer to move the "top" part of the stage downrange a bit even if it does compress the course of fire a little. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 (edited) Camera angle be damned, that is hairy stuff right there. You are talking about someone making a 10 degree mistake and it could get ugly fast. They needed to move the start a bit farther into the bay and those outside target too. We had something I thought was hairy at A5 too, but htere wasn't much to do. Next time it will be taken care of... JT Edited November 2, 2010 by JThompson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 Camera angle be damned, that is hairy stuff right there. You are talking about someone making a 10 degree mistake and it could get ugly fast. They needed to move the start a bit farther into the bay. We had something I thought was hairy at A5 too, but htere wasn't much to do. Next time it will be taken care of... JT Agreed. That's been my thought as well. Sight alignment might be fine but a wanked shot could turn into something catastrophic. **I admit to doing "downrange drills" in the past with a very select group of people in non-competition training scenarios, and would again with folks of similar skills and focus. I know that flies all in the face of reason for what we do in USPSA but that wasn't the same environment. At a USPSA match where I can't control the participants, I'd be much more comfortable having the CoF moved downrange to avoid even the possibility of an errant shot finding an observer as a backstop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larry cazes Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 Yup. They are behind the 180 but if I were the RO running the stage I would have required them to be farther back from where they were. I tend toward very conservative with this kind of thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandro Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 This stage was very safe. Also, both ROs working this stage were National level ROs. The stage was setup about 10 to 12 yards into the shooting bay. The video is giving you the wrong impression. Knowing the match staff an unsafe stage would've never being allowed. My 2cs. Good match BTW! DVC, Sandro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outerlimits Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 wow! i don't care about "illusion", but that is really close. i don't care if it's really 10-15 degrees off, it's way too close. all it takes is a trip or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolex Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 WOW! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 wow! i don't care about "illusion", but that is really close. i don't care if it's really 10-15 degrees off, it's way too close. all it takes is a trip or something. Hey, it looks like you captured a UFO in that shot!! JT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkruss Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 This was an awesome match. One of the guys on my squad shot the video. The depth of the bay is very distorted in the video. It was a very well run and extremely safe match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff686 Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 The point of an illusion is that it is fooling you... If you say "I don't care about any illusion." then you are totally falling for any illusion that may exist. Without being presented with additional information, the mind tends to normalize visual information and adjust it to meet your expectations. Ever watch a normal TV show in wide-screen mode? If you switch back and forth, it is obvious that everyone is stretched and distorted. However, if you ONLY see the wide-screen stretched mode, many people never notice the distortion. Their brains simply adjust. Same thing is happening here. From the photo, you can't tell how far back those people really are standing. Do these pics look different: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CRDB Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 (edited) were did the muzzle go at :11 Edited November 2, 2010 by CRDB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 (edited) I was a photog for 8 years, I know what aspect ratios are and the distortion caused by wide angle or fisheye lens. I have shot with them enough to know what the picture was like with no distortions. I'm not here to argue. I also have a program that can take a fisheye shot or any other lens and straighten it out so you can see what the full shot was. What I am saying is that this stage could have been made safer without changed it significantly. I am not throwing rocks at the guys either... once you have actually done one of these things, you are have a lot more understanding and keep your mouth shut most of the time. It's easy to sit back and judge something second hand and make suggestions. As I said earlier in the post, we had something at A5 which was much the same. I was aware of it, but didn't have a solution. Next time we run one there I will, or we won't have a stage there. This is the last I have to say on it as I don't want to make an entire match about one stage that may have been made a little safer. Best, JT Edited November 2, 2010 by JThompson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outerlimits Posted November 2, 2010 Share Posted November 2, 2010 The point of an illusion is that it is fooling you... If you say "I don't care about any illusion." then you are totally falling for any illusion that may exist. Without being presented with additional information, the mind tends to normalize visual information and adjust it to meet your expectations. Ever watch a normal TV show in wide-screen mode? If you switch back and forth, it is obvious that everyone is stretched and distorted. However, if you ONLY see the wide-screen stretched mode, many people never notice the distortion. Their brains simply adjust. Same thing is happening here. From the photo, you can't tell how far back those people really are standing. Do these pics look different: i get your point. but think about this. would you say it's safe to have those same bodies direcly within a bermed range, downrange like that? i think not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XD Niner Posted November 3, 2010 Share Posted November 3, 2010 (edited) The point of an illusion is that it is fooling you... If you say "I don't care about any illusion." then you are totally falling for any illusion that may exist. Without being presented with additional information, the mind tends to normalize visual information and adjust it to meet your expectations. Ever watch a normal TV show in wide-screen mode? If you switch back and forth, it is obvious that everyone is stretched and distorted. However, if you ONLY see the wide-screen stretched mode, many people never notice the distortion. Their brains simply adjust. Same thing is happening here. From the photo, you can't tell how far back those people really are standing. Do these pics look different: i get your point. but think about this. would you say it's safe to have those same bodies direcly within a bermed range, downrange like that? i think not. The spectators in the video were anything but "downrange." From the location that everyone started, including this shooter, the angle from the centerline of the stage to both the far left (take a look at the start of the video) and far right targets was about 75 degrees. The spectators were at least 20 degrees behind the 180 from that point. Once again, it is the wide angle hat cam lens that is distorting the apparent perspective. If you were not at the match, I fail to see how you can have an informed opinion about the stage geometry. Edited November 3, 2010 by XD Niner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted November 3, 2010 Share Posted November 3, 2010 If there is too much distortion, wouldn't the wagon appear too long/short or something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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