You Be The Ro

[Shooter Grrl]

i just got home from Frank's FL open it was a blast!!!...i shot (limited C) good on friday the whole day had a lot of A's and only had a few mikes with good time and on my 2nd to the last stage to finish the match there was a stage that you had to pull a cord for the window to open and shoot stronghand after engaging all the papers and steel i was ordered to clear but as i let go of the cord the shutter dropped on my Gun and all i heard was BOOM!! AD was given .. great..

the RO was great though she really didnt want to give DQ's but rules are rules..the match director came up and still invited me to shoot sunday for the shoot offs..what a great bunch of guys..i wouldnt really say it was a waste of time and money...i enjoyed it and will still come back next year.. 

I hate to hear that, cause I don't think it was a righteous DQ. I don't wanna start an argument, but an Accidental Discharge is a bullet that leaves the berm or strikes the ground within 3 feet of the shooter. If you and RO are looking at a wall with a port, neither of you could tell where the bullet hit!

[John Dunn]

It would fall under unsafe gun handling, still a DQ.

[Shooter Grrl]

Nice try John, but nope Unsafe gunhandling is specifically described as a discharge prior to commencement, loading, reloading, unloading or remedial action in the case of a malfunction or during movement except while engaging targets.

None of the above was taking place. Trust me, I'm intimately familiar with the DQ'able offenses. Lessons learned at the Nationals

I'm moving these posts to the Rules forum, as this discussion does not belong here (my fault!!!!)

[Nik Habicht]

From the original post: "...i was ordered to clear ..." I'd probably have to really see the specifics firsthand ---- but if the shooter was starting the unload cycle and the gun went boom I'd have to DQ him too. It's a little tough to tell for certain based on the sketchy info provided....

[Ron Ankeny]

On the surface I would agree with John and Nik...but I wasn't there. I guess we would have to determine when the unloading cycle begins.

[ogiebb]

i just got home from Frank's FL open it was a blast!!!...i shot (limited C) good on friday the whole day had a lot of A's and only had a few mikes with good time and on my 2nd to the last stage to finish the match there was a stage that you had to pull a cord for the window to open and shoot stronghand after engaging all the papers and steel i was ordered to clear but as i let go of the cord the shutter dropped on my Gun and all i heard was BOOM!! AD was given .. great..

the RO was great though she really didnt want to give DQ's but rules are rules..the match director came up and still invited me to shoot sunday for the shoot offs..what a great bunch of guys..i wouldnt really say it was a waste of time and money...i enjoyed it and will still come back next year.. 

I hate to hear that, cause I don't think it was a righteous DQ. I don't wanna start an argument, but an Accidental Discharge is a bullet that leaves the berm or strikes the ground within 3 feet of the shooter. If you and RO are looking at a wall with a port, neither of you could tell where the bullet hit!

thank you shootergirl..im still feeling a little sore about that ..we had 3 DQ's in our squad ..it kinda hurts a little more after the ro's said that i was winning my class..well charge to experience then i guess..the RO's in franks match were great and very polite. if the RO that DQ'ed me was not nice i would have been a little more shall i say "rude"

[SRT Driver]

Did you have your finger inside the trigger guard?

Another question, what caused the RO to "order you too clear"?

[ogiebb]

Did you have your finger inside the trigger guard?

Another question, what caused the RO to "order you too clear"?

because i have engaged all the paper and steel in the stage..about the trigger finger? it was out until that cover dropped on my gun. reflex(Stupidity) caused it

[John Dunn]

SG,

It would help to have been there, but it sounds like the RO gave the command IYAFUASC. Now if the competitor has already engaged all the targets, and drops the prop on his gun as he is beginning to unload, I think 10.3.2.1 is satisfied and the DQ stands. The only argument would be that the shooter wasn't finished, hadn't started unloading, therefore no DQ. We can get the final ruling from Darth, but I think I would have made the DQ call.

Sorry ogiebb, sounds like a great match up to that point.

[Vince Pinto]

Hi guys,

These "You be the RO" questions are always a bit hairy, because we often don't get the full story on the first pass. Anyway, the words in the original post which are relevant to me are " .... i was ordered to clear but as i let go of the cord the shutter dropped on my Gun and all i heard was BOOM!!". There's also the follow-up comment in a later post "i have engaged all the paper and steel in the stage..about the trigger finger? it was out until that cover dropped on my gun. reflex(Stupidity) caused it".

This makes me presume two things: firstly, the "i was ordered to clear" part actually means "I was asked IYAFULASC" and, secondly, that the USPSA 14th Edition 2001 rulebook applied to the match. If so, then it seems that a match DQ was the correct call under the following rule:

10.3.11 Failure to keep the finger outside the trigger guard during loading or unloading.

[Paul B]

As indicated by others, information is rather sketchy, but can we consider the following:

1. The IYAFUASC range command had been given, but that does not mean the action had taken place. I've seen numerous situations in which the shooter took another shot after the command had been given. This isn't the official end of the course of fire is it?

2. It's obvious that the shooters other hand was holding a rope (or a lever?) which held the port open. If that is the case and he let go of the rope causing the port door to fall he could not have started the actual unloading action which usually requires 2 hands. (had he dropped the magazine?)

3. I would equate this to a shooter shooting around a wall and having his gun hit the wall causing a premature discharge. If the round went into the backstop was there a DQ?

I'm not saying this is good practice, but is it covered by the rules?

[Vince Pinto]

Paul,

You raise some valid points, and I think we addressed these in the IPSC 2004 Edition rulebook:

8.5. Movement

8.5.1 Except when the competitor is actually aiming or shooting at targets, all movement must be accomplished with the fingers visibly outside the trigger guard and the safety should be engaged. The firearm must be pointed in a safe direction. "Movement" is defined as any of the actions below:

..... 8.5.1.1 Taking more than one step in any direction

..... 8.5.1.2 Changing shooting stance (e.g. from standing to kneeling, from seated to standing etc.).

++++++++++++

8.3.6 "If You Are Finished, Unload And Show Clear" – If the competitor has finished shooting, he must lower his handgun and present it for inspection by the Range Officer with the muzzle pointed down range, magazine removed, slide locked or held open, and chamber empty. Revolvers must be presented with the cylinder swung out and empty.

++++++++++++

8.3.7 "If Clear, Hammer Down, Holster" – After issuance of this command, the competitor must not resume shooting (see Rule 10.6.1). While continuing to point the handgun safely downrange, the competitor must perform a final safety check of the handgun as follows:

..... 8.3.7.1 Self-loaders – release the slide and pull the trigger (without touching the hammer, if any).

..... 8.3.7.2 Revolvers – close the empty cylinder (without touching the hammer, if any).

..... 8.3.7.3 If the gun proves to be clear, the competitor must holster his handgun. Once the competitor's hands are clear of the holstered handgun, the course of fire is deemed to have ended.

..... 8.3.7.4 If the gun does not prove to be clear, the Range Officer will resume the commands from Rule 8.3.6 (also see Rule 10.4.3).

++++++++++++

10.4.3 A shot which occurs while preparing to or while actually loading, reloading or unloading a handgun. This includes any shot fired during the procedures outlined in Rule 8.3.7.

[Ron Ankeny]

never mind

[diehli]

8.5.1 Except when the competitor is actually aiming or shooting at targets, all movement must be accomplished with the fingers visibly outside the trigger guard and the safety should be engaged. The firearm must be pointed in a safe direction. "Movement" is defined as any of the actions below:

..... 8.5.1.1 Taking more than one step in any direction

..... 8.5.1.2 Changing shooting stance (e.g. from standing to kneeling, from seated to standing etc.).

A bit of a thread hijack, I guess:

"Safety should be engaged"? WTF?

[Sterling White]

Should is a recommendation!

[Vince Pinto]

"Safety should be engaged"? WTF?

Is "WTF?" a question?

The "should be engaged" wording has been in the rules at least since the 13th Edition 1996 rulebook, and we didn't think it needed to be changed in the last three rulebook revisions so, um, WTF do you say WTF?

[diehli]

Heh... ok ok ok... I just wanted to make sure that I wasn't violating the rules. The lesson here is: never read "should" as "must." Thanx, gents.

[mcoliver]

thank you shootergirl..im still feeling a little sore about that ..we had 3 DQ's in our squad ..it kinda hurts a little more after the ro's said that i was winning my class..well charge to experience then i guess..the RO's in franks match were great and very polite. if the RO that DQ'ed me was not nice i would have been a little more shall i say "rude"

Ogie, dude, sorry to hear about your DQ. But I just had to ask, what the heck are you doing in C class?

[SmittyFL]

Sorry to hear as well. I think I was watching when it happened, if you were on the left port. Nobody likes to see anyone get DQ'ed.

I shot the stage on Sat. I shot the left port first and because of the wierd position shooting strong hand (RH) a piece of brass went down my shirt. I finished on the right port and all I could think about was the brass searing my belly button. I immediately let go of the cord to untuck my shirt and you know what happened, the thing nearly took my hand off. Luckily the gun didn't go off, but I can certainly see how it could happen.

Glad you enjoyed the match as much as possible anyway.

[ogiebb]

thank you shootergirl..im still feeling a little sore about that ..we had 3 DQ's in our squad ..it kinda hurts a little more after the ro's said that i was winning my class..well charge to experience then i guess..the RO's in franks match were great and very polite. if the RO that DQ'ed me was not nice i would have been a little more shall i say "rude"

Ogie, dude, sorry to hear about your DQ. But I just had to ask, what the heck are you doing in C class?

im really just a "D" shooter dude..he he

[L9X25]

On a stage at the Open, I was given the IYAFUASC command and noticed that I had a miss on a target ... I took the shot (ported 9x25 in RO's face) and scared the hell out of the RO. It cost me several seconds of time (likely not worth the time) cleared the RO's sinuses and he just repeated the IYAFUASC command slightly louder (since he was now deaf). It is not really a *command* so much as an offer. No DQ or penalty beyond the dirty look.

Another shooter had an AD one instant after retrieving a handgun off of a barrel (after the buzzer) and was stopped by the RO. The RM reinstated him because the bullet impacted the berm in the vicinity of targets, he was in a shooting box, and claimed he was engaging a target (despite the fact that the gun was at hip level and he was moving). No DQ.

I don't know how you can determine if the shooter was finished shooting on not. Removing the magazine from the gun does not preclude taking one final shot.

We all *know* what an AD is ... but the *legal* interpretation varies greatly.

Leo

[DaveP]

Hmmmmmm... applying current rules ?

I haven't answered any of this type of question for a while.... but I recon that this case has its merits.

because we often don't get the full story on the first pass. Anyway, the words in the original post which are relevant to me are " .... i was ordered to clear but as i let go of the cord the shutter dropped on my Gun and all i heard was BOOM!!". There's also the follow-up comment in a later post "i have engaged all the paper and steel in the stage..about the trigger finger? it was out until that cover dropped on my gun. reflex(Stupidity) caused it".

Until the IYAFUASC process is completed in all parts, then the competitor is still within his rights to engage targets, (and even more within his rights if the process hasn't even been started) and as far as I can see.... it hadn't.

So I'm realy inclined to start wondering as to if 8.6.3 should apply.

"In the event that inadvertent contact from the Range Officer or another external influence.................................. however, the provisions of section 10.3 may still apply"

Thats a MAY

So In light of the story as we / I have it...

11.1.2 "Appeals arising from a disqualification for a safty infraction will only be accepted to determine whether exceptional circumstances warrent reconsideration of the match disqualification, However the commission of the infraction as described by the Range Officer is not subject to challenge or appeal"

Did the AD happen.... yes, are there exceptional circumstances.... yes. should 10.3 apply... no

DQ... nope !

If in an arbitration of this, and with the facts being as in this thread....

I would vote for reinstatement. (But I think that by now, the hour has passed)

"Risk Assessment".. windows fall if you let go of the rope !.. As it was the end of the stage, the RO should take control of window and get shooter to back up before lowering the window and starting the IYAFUASC process ?

Neck on choping block time...

IMHO The design or briefing of this section of the stage was an event waiting to happen, and due to poor stage management........ it did !

[cz75ipsc]

I vote for no DQ. The competitor COULD have been engaging a target with the shot as IYAFUASC doesn't end the COF (and I sure would have said I was engaging a target)

[Vince Pinto]

Hmmm.

Given that the competitor declared in his opening post " ..... as i let go of the cord the shutter dropped on my Gun and all i heard was BOOM!!", I suspect that it might be difficult to convince an Arbitration Committee that you waited until the window closed to blindly shoot at a target you could no longer see.

In fact, they might even consider that to be unsafe

[Jody Waring]

When engaging or aiming at targets is the only time the gun should be fired, it's pretty hard to argue with an AD infraction. An RO while watching a shooter, should easily be able to determine if an AD was infact an AD. I've seen many argue to be re-instated, but even as a bystander you can sometimes easily see the: Ooop's, Oh Shi&, and know what just happened. But as others have mentioned, how do you know if the shooter was finished or not. Sometimes an RO can be put in a tough spot, especially when it comes to enforcing something we all try to avoid.