15 round magazines in Production

[G-ManBart]

I don't understand why anyone would want a 15 round magazine when we have eight shot arrays. A shooter with a 15 round mag will either have to reload between arrays, dumping seven rounds on the ground, or do a standing reload. Therefore, the magazine capacity must be raised to at least 18 rounds.

LMAO

[ben b.]

I don't understand why anyone would want a 15 round magazine when we have eight shot arrays. A shooter with a 15 round mag will either have to reload between arrays, dumping seven rounds on the ground, or do a standing reload. Therefore, the magazine capacity must be raised to at least 18 rounds.

This is funny. I'm sorry so few got it.

[triggerhound]

When new people show up to our matches, even if they have enough mags to shoot production, I usually encourage them to shoot Limited Minor. It allows them to focus more on the safety than on worrying about reloads. Even people who are decent shooters will not likely do well at their first couple USPSA matches until they really learn the game and what is efficient in this game. By the time they are hooked enough to be concerned with their placement, they are hooked enough to buy a couple more mags to shoot Production.

I realize this discussion is a little old, but had to comment anyway.

I completely agree. I showed up to my first match this year with 3 magazines that hold 18 rounds each. I couldn't shoot production because I didn't have the capacity to shoot some 32 round stages. I shot limited minor and had a great time. I wouldn't have even showed up to my first match for another month or two if I had to wait to buy more equipment. Starting out in limited minor allowed me to get started and focus on safety and shooting. It gave me time to develop my other skills in dry practice after I'd been to a match and started to figure out what it was all about.

The first match, IMO, is the most critical one for new shooters. Once you show up to your first match and participate you learn a ton and are hooked. But getting people to the first match is often difficult. Bring what you have and shoot limited minor. You aren't going to place well anyway, but show up and have fun with what you have.

[mpolans]

I think the idea to institute an increase to 15 rounds will only make USPSA even better than IDPA (they only have 10 rounds...USPSA would have more). It would almost make USPSA as awesome as IPSC with their 15 round limit. This will make Production waaay better than any other division. However, since we all know the idea to increase the limit to 15 rounds is a liberal Democrat plot to divide and conquer the largely Republican USPSA shooting community, we should be wary of it. This sort of rule change could also lend credence to instituting mag capacity limits in states that currently don't have one, so we should probably donate a bunch of cash to the NRA before even thinking of instituting it.

There...now we do we have enough of the below for a moderator finally kill this now-useless thread?

• USPSA vs IPSC

• IPSC vs IDPA

• STI vs SVI

• Limited 10 vs Limited Division

• This Division vs That Division

• This Government vs That Government

• Gun Control Issues

[ima45dv8]

I think the idea to institute an increase to 15 rounds will only make USPSA even better than IDPA (they only have 10 rounds...USPSA would have more). It would almost make USPSA as awesome as IPSC with their 15 round limit. This will make Production waaay better than any other division. However, since we all know the idea to increase the limit to 15 rounds is a liberal Democrat plot to divide and conquer the largely Republican USPSA shooting community, we should be wary of it. This sort of rule change could also lend credence to instituting mag capacity limits in states that currently don't have one, so we should probably donate a bunch of cash to the NRA before even thinking of instituting it.

There...now we do we have enough of the below for a moderator finally kill this now-useless thread?

USPSA vs IPSC

IPSC vs IDPA

STI vs SVI

Limited 10 vs Limited Division

This Division vs That Division

This Government vs That Government

Gun Control Issues

No, and please don't take that as a challenge. The Mod Squad has a very effective Delete function available and further attempts probably would not survive.

Seriously, if folks want the thread to die, why not embrace the tactic of simply not posting in it? People generally don't play a game forever if there's no one with which to play.

[Flexmoney]

It is just as easy to suspend a member for purposely breaking rules as it is to close a thread.

While we're at it, don't even hint at a personal attack on the opening poster. Feel free to be disagree, but be polite here.

- Forum Administrator

[GrumpyOne]

Personally, I'd like to thank both of the mods (or more, if they have posted in this topic) for their opinions and judgement in leaving this thread open (it could have gotten closed long ago, it seems, from some of the comments!). While I do think it has run it's course, there are very good opinions expressed on both sides, and they (the opinions) have given everyone concerned something to think about. Bravo, mods, Bravo.

PS. Keep it at 10 rounds.....

[badchad]

Yes, clearly placing in the top 16 was not good enough for you.

Actually I thought I was just taking your word for it that he didn't do that well. What year did he shoot the .45? What place and what % did he get with it?

Just out of curiousity, what gun did you run at the Production Nationals, and where did you place. I just want to know so I don't buy that gun since it's clearly not competetive.

27th, I started shooting in 2007 so that's not too bad is it? I shoot a full size 9mm like just about everyone else there. Mine was a CZ Shadow. Google indicates that's what you shoot. Any chance you would consider switching to a .45?

You're more than welcome to keep beating a dead horse. It's your right. But I can guarantee it ain't gonna happen.

I'm going to appeal to Nationals results because that's the only match I am aware of where they keep such statistics. So if it turned out that 100% of Production competitors at Nationals shot full size 9mm guns or guns with magazine capacities of 15 or more, would you still be opposed to the rule change? What if it were only 99%?

It just seems to me the responses are rather emotive considering I'm just suggesting we be able to load our mags a little closer to the average capacity of the division. To me it seems opponents objections seem like misplaced patriotism where the USPSA isn't going to make rules more like IPSC, (NO MATTER WHAT) to the point where a good number are actually embracing a magazine capacity created by gun control proponents.

[ben b.]

The 10 rd limit is also inclusive of every state in the US...the US part of USPSA. As stated, it is also inclusive of .40 guns, in their Production form. That is a nice feature of it.

[Chuck Anderson]

Yes, clearly placing in the top 16 was not good enough for you.

Actually I thought I was just taking your word for it that he didn't do that well. What year did he shoot the .45? What place and what % did he get with it?

Just out of curiousity, what gun did you run at the Production Nationals, and where did you place. I just want to know so I don't buy that gun since it's clearly not competetive.

27th, I started shooting in 2007 so that's not too bad is it? I shoot a full size 9mm like just about everyone else there. Mine was a CZ Shadow. Google indicates that's what you shoot. Any chance you would consider switching to a .45?

You're more than welcome to keep beating a dead horse. It's your right. But I can guarantee it ain't gonna happen.

I'm going to appeal to Nationals results because that's the only match I am aware of where they keep such statistics. So if it turned out that 100% of Production competitors at Nationals shot full size 9mm guns or guns with magazine capacities of 15 or more, would you still be opposed to the rule change? What if it were only 99%?

It just seems to me the responses are rather emotive considering I'm just suggesting we be able to load our mags a little closer to the average capacity of the division. To me it seems opponents objections seem like misplaced patriotism where the USPSA isn't going to make rules more like IPSC, (NO MATTER WHAT) to the point where a good number are actually embracing a magazine capacity created by gun control proponents.

Ernest Langdon, 2007 Production Nationals, 16th O/A, 81.18%.

Your Google-Fu is clearly weak if it says I shot a Shadow. I've never actually fired one let alone compete with one. I did shoot a CZ SP-01 for about a year and a half before switching back to a Glock. Been shooting this for about a year and a half. Before the CZ I shot a Glock 17. I still use the CZ though for IPSC events. That was the reason I got it to start with. IPSC was biased solidly, and still is, towards DA/SA guns. It also used to be the case because of the lack of capacity limit that you were pretty much stuck with the CZ or Tanfoglio platform guns if you wished to do well. IPSC was becoming an arms race in Production. They instituted a mag capacity limit to try and stop that arms race. What IPSC did is completely different from what you propose USPSA do. Going down in capacity increased the number of designs that were competetive. You seek to limit that number.

As far Nationals results. The reasons for not basing decisions on those numbers have been time and time re-hashed. You just don't like them because they don't support your argument. Production is not and was never meant to be about what's competitve to the less than 150 members that shoot Production in our Nationals. It's about attracting the new competitor. Allowing them somewhere to shoot where they don't feel they have to go out and buy a new gun. I don't remember a Nationals that has been won with a gun that cost more than $600.00. (Pretty sure Todd did it with a Para but I wasn't shooting Production then).

As far as Patriotism to USPSA, I'm just not getting that. What you're suggesting has nothing to do with IPSC. It's the opposite of what they did, and by increasing the capacity we would be going against what IPSC did.

To be honest I don't really care about the now defunct assault weapons ban and it's capacity limit. I just don't see any gain to USPSA in substituting one arbitrary limit on capacity for another. And I see zero benefit in opening up the capacity to whatever the gun was designed to hold. We'd just end up in exactly the same situation IPSC was in with one or two designs dominating the division.

[Flexmoney]

To be honest I don't really care about the now defunct assault weapons ban and it's capacity limit. I just don't see any gain to USPSA in substituting one arbitrary limit on capacity for another. And I see zero benefit in opening up the capacity to whatever the gun was designed to hold. We'd just end up in exactly the same situation IPSC was in with one or two designs dominating the division.

Well said.

And, that let's me keep playing with my G26...when I so choose to shake out my carry gun under competitive conditions.

[glefos]

Badchad,

Excellent arguments. Keep knocking the softballs out of the park.

[badchad]

Ernest Langdon, 2007 Production Nationals, 16th O/A, 81.18%.

Ok I googled Langdon. It seems he is pretty big in IDPA and was USPSA Production National Champion in 2000 which is before I was involved in the sport. 81% just seems low for a guy who has won the whole match before. Low enough that one might think shooting a .45 was hurting his results rather than helping it. So if that's the best performance you know of, with regards to a .45 being shot in Production division I'm willing to rest my case on that caliber.

Your Google-Fu is clearly weak if it says I shot a Shadow. I've never actually fired one let alone compete with one. I did shoot a CZ SP-01 for about a year and a half before switching back to a Glock. Been shooting this for about a year and a half. Before the CZ I shot a Glock 17.

Sorry I saw a picture of what looked like a Shadow, but SP-01 is close enough for me. So you went from hi-cap 9mm to hi-cap 9mm back to hi-cap 9mm? It seems like that is what most people do. Like Bart it matches my observations perfectly.

What IPSC did is completely different from what you propose USPSA do. Going down in capacity increased the number of designs that were competetive. You seek to limit that number.

I understand fully what IPSC did. I was reading the arguments before the change on the IPSC forum. Yes they were having a grip length/mag cap arms arms race so it appears they looked around at what guns were being shot and would be shot and picked 15 rounds as being inclusive of 99+% of guns competitors were likely to shoot. USPSA just picked the number of the assault weapon ban, which at the time was a good idea. Were just not at that time anymore.

As far Nationals results. The reasons for not basing decisions on those numbers have been time and time re-hashed. You just don't like them because they don't support your argument.

Are you saying that even if 100% of Production guns at the current nationals held 15 or more rounds you would still be against raising the capacity limit?

Production is not and was never meant to be about what's competitve to the less than 150 members that shoot Production in our Nationals. It's about attracting the new competitor.

Well then I think USPSA should look at the difference between what the division was meant to be, in theory, and what it actually is, in reality, and examine why so many new shooters choose to shoot their Production legal guns in Limited division. Latest Tuesday Night Steel results at Rio http://riopractical.com/text/tue_nite.pdf has 10 novice shooters (class “N”) shooting Limited and zero shooting in Production.

As far as Patriotism to USPSA, I'm just not getting that.

Stockholm syndrome?

[G-ManBart]

Ernest Langdon, 2007 Production Nationals, 16th O/A, 81.18%.

Ok I googled Langdon. It seems he is pretty big in IDPA and was USPSA Production National Champion in 2000 which is before I was involved in the sport. 81% just seems low for a guy who has won the whole match before. Low enough that one might think shooting a .45 was hurting his results rather than helping it. So if that's the best performance you know of, with regards to a .45 being shot in Production division I'm willing to rest my case on that caliber.

This argument is so weak, I can't believe you'd use it. The people who go to the Nationals, much less place at the top, are going to have guns dedicated to the sport, and the division, so there would be little reason for them to pick a .45 over a 9 for Production...since they tend to shoot a lot, component cost savings alone make that decision easy. That's very different from the average Joe who will never shoot anything bigger than a local match.

Simply put, it's a very limited sample size, and one that won't let you discount something (a .45 finishing well) just because it hasn't happened.

Your Google-Fu is clearly weak if it says I shot a Shadow. I've never actually fired one let alone compete with one. I did shoot a CZ SP-01 for about a year and a half before switching back to a Glock. Been shooting this for about a year and a half. Before the CZ I shot a Glock 17.

Sorry I saw a picture of what looked like a Shadow, but SP-01 is close enough for me. So you went from hi-cap 9mm to hi-cap 9mm back to hi-cap 9mm? It seems like that is what most people do. Like Bart it matches my observations perfectly.

Wrong group of people to prove your point. I have 8 handguns dedicated to USPSA shooting, (soon to be 9) so I'm the kind of person who's going to get whatever I need to shoot a division...I assume Chuck is in the same category.

Are you saying that even if 100% of Production guns at the current nationals held 15 or more rounds you would still be against raising the capacity limit?

I would be. I don't know why keep trying to use Nationals, but that one set of matches is not indicative of the sport, as a whole. It's a very small sub-section of the members that ever go to Nationals, and even fewer who do so regularly. The people who go to Nationals are going to have whatever it takes to shoot competitively in their chosen division....plain and simple. Those aren't the folks a rule change would hurt.

Well then I think USPSA should look at the difference between what the division was meant to be, in theory, and what it actually is, in reality, and examine why so many new shooters choose to shoot their Production legal guns in Limited division. Latest Tuesday Night Steel results at Rio http://riopractical.com/text/tue_nite.pdf has 10 novice shooters (class “N”) shooting Limited and zero shooting in Production.

First off, I've pointed this out before, but while you may be seeing that there, I'm not seeing it here...almost all of our new shooters are in Production. So, please don't suggest that what you're seeing is more important than what other people are seeing....because it's not.

Oh, and on that note, I really was done with this thread a while back (mostly because there's no way the change you want will happen), but I hate to waste a good point. I've been saving this one for a while now...I think you're going to like it. See, I've noticed this pattern that I couldn't quite figure out. You're frequently using a small sample size/group to support your idea, and that rarely works well, but then I figured that's bound to happen because if you use the large group as an example, it kills your argument...but we can even forget that. Here's what I think the problem is; you're using TNS as a benchmark.....wait for it:

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Tuesday Night Steel isn't even a USPSA match! It's a freakin' steel match dude. You know, that means no little detail we call Power Factor to complicate things. Yeah, that means there's no real disadvantage if you shoot a 9mm loaded to capacity in Limited because you're not giving up Major scoring to the rest of the field. Take a newbie, tell him he can shoot in Production with 10rd mags, or Limited with 13-19rd mags, and oh, it's steel, so you'll probably miss a lot....makes that an easy choice. Sure, you'll be shooting against guys with expensive guns that hold a few more rounds, but you're not going to beat them anyway....no-brainer.

Change to a USPSA match and ask those same guys whether they want to shoot Limited Minor, give up 3-7rds of mag capacity to most of the Limited shooters, and give up Major scoring, oh and you're still not going to beat them, or shoot Production with 10rd mags, and give up nothing to the rest of the field. Again...that's a no-brainer.

Just last week a guy at work cornered me "hey, I hear you shoot lots of pistol matches"....so we talked. Nearly his first question was "I can't afford to buy a gun right now, so can I use my issue Glock 23 and be somewhat competitive?". He'll get his @ss kicked in the beginning anyway, but less so in Production than in Limited. THAT is what the newbie is worried about, and what keeps them from coming out to matches. He's got a 13rd mag gun, and aside from shooting ammo that's a bit toasty, he's not giving up much to the field other than a little bit of sight radius. R,

Edited December 9, 2010 by G-ManBart

[Chuck Anderson]

Ok I googled Langdon. It seems he is pretty big in IDPA and was USPSA Production National Champion in 2000 which is before I was involved in the sport. 81% just seems low for a guy who has won the whole match before. Low enough that one might think shooting a .45 was hurting his results rather than helping it. So if that's the best performance you know of, with regards to a .45 being shot in Production division I'm willing to rest my case on that caliber.

First off, only 11 shooters finished above 82% that year so there must not have been a lot of competetive guns at that match. Heck look at 2005. Dave was the only person to finish above 85% so Angus, Matt, me and Dave must have been shooting really uncompetetive guns (CZ, CZ, Glock 17, Beretta or XD). Second, yes it hurt has performance. He had issues with the powderpuff ammo he shot. And he'd also been out of USPSA for awhile.

Sorry I saw a picture of what looked like a Shadow, but SP-01 is close enough for me. So you went from hi-cap 9mm to hi-cap 9mm back to hi-cap 9mm? It seems like that is what most people do. Like Bart it matches my observations perfectly.

And as usual your observations completely miss the point. That gun is not what I started with. I started in USPSA before there was a Production Division. My first gun shot in competition was a Glock 21, second was a Glock 22. If I had started about a year apart, either sooner or later, I'd have been competing with my then duty gun, a Sig 228. The point of Production isn't what I shoot at Nationals now. It's what new shooters have to start with. It's an image issue. Let there be a division or two where a newbie can come in and be competetive, at a local level, where he's gonna be for the first year or two anyway, with what he already owns.

I understand fully what IPSC did. I was reading the arguments before the change on the IPSC forum. Yes they were having a grip length/mag cap arms arms race so it appears they looked around at what guns were being shot and would be shot and picked 15 rounds as being inclusive of 99+% of guns competitors were likely to shoot. USPSA just picked the number of the assault weapon ban, which at the time was a good idea. Were just not at that time anymore.

And yet you try using them as an example, even though it's exactly the opposite of what you want to do. You're either the worst debater, or you're deliberately ignoring truth. Again your figure of 99% may be right for IPSC since everyone had to be shooting Hi-Cap 9's already to be competetive. But that's the opposite of the situation in the US. I routinely have people shoot guns in Production that aren't competive at Nationals. Heck guys even shoot guns that aren't competive in anything at local matches. I've seen everything from Kahr's, J-Frame .38's, Browning Hi-Powers, Desert Eagles, Ruger GP100, Sig 225, Sig 228, Smith 629 and I'm sure I could easily come up with a ton more. Local matches are where this game starts, not Nationals.

Are you saying that even if 100% of Production guns at the current nationals held 15 or more rounds you would still be against raising the capacity limit?

Yep.

Well then I think USPSA should look at the difference between what the division was meant to be, in theory, and what it actually is, in reality, and examine why so many new shooters choose to shoot their Production legal guns in Limited division. Latest Tuesday Night Steel results at Rio http://riopractical.com/text/tue_nite.pdf has 10 novice shooters (class “N”) shooting Limited and zero shooting in Production.

I think Bart covered this one rather nicely. Using a non-USPSA match to justify changing USPSA rules, based on a tiny sample size, on a match that has zero correlation with USPSA is, well.....let's just say it has about as much merit as me saying we should change revolver to require thumb cocking because I went to this cowboy match last weekend and they were all thumb cocking, every single one of them.

[smokshwn]

I have had a quote running around in my head and thought this would be the best place to put it so it would quit bothering me.....

"Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up!"

[gohuskers]

Just leave it as is. Seems to be working fine.

[bbbean]

Nixed per request.

Edited December 9, 2010 by bbbean

[Singlestack]

Enough sarcasm. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and this is the place to debate them. If you disagree, post respectfully or do not post. If you want the thread to die, do not post in it.

[Gary Stevens]

There is actually a fairly simple way to increase the capacity of Production Guns.

Run for an Area Director position.

Get elected.

Attend a BOD meeting and make a motion to do the increase, assuming it meets all legal requirements to do so.

Get 4 other BOD members to agree to it and express that agreement in the form of a "Yea" vote.

And Shazaam, you have an increase in capacity for Production Guns.

Otherwise I agree with Chuck, it isn't going to happen.

Edited December 9, 2010 by Gary Stevens

[Chuck Anderson]

Wrong group of people to prove your point. I have 8 handguns dedicated to USPSA shooting, (soon to be 9) so I'm the kind of person who's going to get whatever I need to shoot a division...I assume Chuck is in the same category.

Nope, I'm in a complete different category. I'm not going to get into specifics because there's a chance my wife might come across this. I've got guns for every occasion, Open, Limited, L10, Single Stack, Production, Revolver, ICORE Iron Sight, ICORE Open, Tactical Scope, Tactial Iron, Heavy Metal, Bianchi Metallic, Bianchi Productino, Bianchi Open (In build), Steel Challenge Rimfire, SC Open, SC Iron Sight, PPC, Ruger Rimfire Rifle, GSSF Unlimited, Major Sub, Subcompact and then there are carry and entry guns. I've been competing and doing well for long enough that I have a gun for just about every occasion or Division. Something that is set up specifically for whatever game I want to play. And I'm anal retentive enough that I'm going to try and milk every advantage that I can out of my equipment. Chad, if you think I'm the person we need to use as a guide for Production I think you have a very distorted view of what's in the best interest for USPSA.

As far as Production I've got about 12 I could do very well with. But I've got 26 guns I could shoot Production with. Some would be a little less competetive. But the point is my safe has a decent sample of different guns. Several that other people, people just starting out might have. While they aren't the most competetive they would get someone a start and get them out to the range where they can decide what gun to get next if they really want to keep shooting.

[Chuck Anderson]

There is actually a fairly simple way to increase the capacity of Production Guns.

Run for an Area Director position.

Get elected.

Attend a BOD meeting and make a motion to do the increase, assuming it meets all legal requirements to do so.

Get 4 other BOD members to agree to it and express that agreement in the form of a "Yea" vote.

And Shazaam, you have an increase in capacity for Production Guns.

Otherwise I agree with Chuck, it isn't going to happen.

It'll be difficult to make it past the motion part. I tried to bring this up at the last BOD meeting. Not because I was in support of it, but just to get a unanimous (which I would have expected) vote on the record keeping the capacity at 10. I couldn't get a second to add it to the agenda. There was that little support from the BOD for this change.

He actually needs to run for AD himself, and get 4 other guys that feel the same way to run as well, win the elections and then give it a try.

[Gary Stevens]

There is actually a fairly simple way to increase the capacity of Production Guns.

Run for an Area Director position.

Get elected.

Attend a BOD meeting and make a motion to do the increase, assuming it meets all legal requirements to do so.

Get 4 other BOD members to agree to it and express that agreement in the form of a "Yea" vote.

And Shazaam, you have an increase in capacity for Production Guns.

Otherwise I agree with Chuck, it isn't going to happen.

It'll be difficult to make it past the motion part. I tried to bring this up at the last BOD meeting. Not because I was in support of it, but just to get a unanimous (which I would have expected) vote on the record keeping the capacity at 10. I couldn't get a second to add it to the agenda. There was that little support from the BOD for this change.

He actually needs to run for AD himself, and get 4 other guys that feel the same way to run as well, win the elections and then give it a try.

I think that could easily be "Plan B"

[G-ManBart]

Wrong group of people to prove your point. I have 8 handguns dedicated to USPSA shooting, (soon to be 9) so I'm the kind of person who's going to get whatever I need to shoot a division...I assume Chuck is in the same category.

Nope, I'm in a complete different category. I'm not going to get into specifics because there's a chance my wife might come across this. I've got guns for every occasion, Open, Limited, L10, Single Stack, Production, Revolver, ICORE Iron Sight, ICORE Open, Tactical Scope, Tactial Iron, Heavy Metal, Bianchi Metallic, Bianchi Productino, Bianchi Open (In build), Steel Challenge Rimfire, SC Open, SC Iron Sight, PPC, Ruger Rimfire Rifle, GSSF Unlimited, Major Sub, Subcompact and then there are carry and entry guns. I've been competing and doing well for long enough that I have a gun for just about every occasion or Division. Something that is set up specifically for whatever game I want to play. And I'm anal retentive enough that I'm going to try and milk every advantage that I can out of my equipment. Chad, if you think I'm the person we need to use as a guide for Production I think you have a very distorted view of what's in the best interest for USPSA.

As far as Production I've got about 12 I could do very well with. But I've got 26 guns I could shoot Production with. Some would be a little less competetive. But the point is my safe has a decent sample of different guns. Several that other people, people just starting out might have. While they aren't the most competetive they would get someone a start and get them out to the range where they can decide what gun to get next if they really want to keep shooting.

Well, you're probably a level or so up from me....I should have been more specific I also have other guns that I could use, but only listed those few that are dedicated solely to USPSA handgun divisions...left out SC guns, 3-gun stuff, etc, etc. Luckily, my wife doesn't visit here, but I'll still leave out additional incriminating statements

My point was that both of us (as well as many others here on Benos) either already have, or would get, any gun we felt we wanted/needed in order to be competitive, and that isn't really the situation most folks are in. R,

[badchad]

Second, yes it hurt has performance. He had issues with the powderpuff ammo he shot.

OK, so were in some kind of agreement. If you shoot a gun that hurts rather than helps your performance the gun is not a competitive platform. So it seem we now agree that compact pistols are not truly competitive rigs, and it seems we in fact agree on the .45. Not much else out there, used with any significant frequency, which does not already hold 15 rounds at least.

It's an image issue. Let there be a division or two where a newbie can come in and be competetive, at a local level, where he's gonna be for the first year or two anyway, with what he already owns.

I'll buy that argument before I'll buy your original one that a lot of competitive guns will suddenly be made obsolete. But even regarding image I disagree. Limited is a division a newbie can reasonably competitive in at a local level, particularly if you are shooting major. I think you even said some of your new shooters opt for Limited. Since Production was not around when you started, it seems you weren't greatly turned off shooting your G21 in something other than Production.

And yet you try using them as an example, even though it's exactly the opposite of what you want to do.

No I'm just looking for Aristotle's golden mean (as in “The coward calls the brave man rash, the rash man calls him a coward.”) with regards to mag capacity. I think that's what IPSC was looking for as well. IPSC had to come down for it, we IMO need to move up.

Yep.

Interesting. Let me ask you this. At the local level, is there any percentage of guns holding 15 or more used that would make you in favor of raising magazine capacity? If so what percent?

I think Bart covered this one rather nicely. Using a non-USPSA match to justify changing USPSA rules, based on a tiny sample size, on a match that has zero correlation with USPSA is, well.....let's just say it has about as much merit as me saying we should change revolver to require thumb cocking because I went to this cowboy match last weekend and they were all thumb cocking, every single one of them.

Maybe, but if you think TNS results don't correlate with USPSA then you either haven't checked the results, or you don't know the definition of correlation. Also with an average of ~150 shooters a week we get a larger sample than any regular match I know of. We could combine results to get larger numbers if you want. I think the week before it was 10 novices in Limited against 3 in Production, and this week it 6 to 5 so with the 10 to zero last week we get a combined total of 16 to 8 which I bet is approaching statistical and practical significance. FWIW, TNS is the match most new shooters around here start with to get there feet wet before shooting a USPSA match. It's also the only match that uses the “novice” category for shooters in their first 3 matches so we can tell who is new and who isn't. I suppose if one were so inclined they could look at the last 100 newly classified USPSA shooters and see what their first classification is, but at least around here that would include a bunch of guys who have already bought new guns.