Getting DQ'd at the Nationals

[Corey]

Stage 18 starts at 41 seconds (I assume it is stage 18.)

ah-ha! that is a bit tricky. can be unsafe if you dont have your thinking cap on...

[beltjones]

Maybe someone could answer this:

I've seen several videos of right handed shooters on stage 18, and all of them chose to go to the left of the barricade to start. Was it an option to go right? Is it "safer" to go left first (in terms of not breaking the 180)?

[M118LR]

ah-ha! that is a bit tricky. can be unsafe if you dont have your thinking cap on...

Yea I bet. Does anyone know how many people may have been DQ'ed from this stage for breaking the 180?

[mlmiller1]

Maybe someone could answer this:

I've seen several videos of right handed shooters on stage 18, and all of them chose to go to the left of the barricade to start. Was it an option to go right? Is it "safer" to go left first (in terms of not breaking the 180)?

Yes, your choice, right or left. We had folks from our squad, all right handed, some go one way, some the other. Going either way was no more safe or unsafe generally but each person is built, sees, handles, moves differently.

You have to learn what works for you best. I believe going right first MAY have been slightly faster for me but I chose left first for safety due to my vision & the way I handle my gun. Of course if I feel I'm safer, I'll go faster or harder, so it was probably a wash in my situation. I also reloaded at the end moving left to right which is more comfortable for me so that made up any time I may have lost if I lost any with my choice.

MLM

[Carmoney]

How about stage 14 where you are facing at the 90 degree angle and told to make ready. I was looking at my muzzle as I was loading and the RO behind me is yelling muzzle muzzle.

As I have pointed out previously, USPSA does not employ the "muzzle" warning.

Many times (and particularly at a match like this one!) shooters need to be able to use the full range of the 180 in order to most effectively attack the stage. They should be permitted to do so without the distraction and interference of an RO who thinks he can anticipate that a 180 violation is about to occur and decides to yell out a warning in advance of that violation.

A shooter who violates a safe gun handling rule should be immediately stopped and DQ'd. Otherwise, the RO should keep quiet.

[Singlestack]

As I have pointed out previously, USPSA does not employ the "muzzle" warning.

8.6.1

[Gregg K]

My squad started the match on stage 18. The first thing I said was that a guy could start and end their match real quick on this stage. I just pulled back a little to be sure to get started off in the match. I am right handed and went up the right side. It wasn't any better or worse going up the right side, either way you had to be mindful of your muzzle.

[Flexmoney]

As I have pointed out previously, USPSA does not employ the "muzzle" warning.

Ummm...not correct.

8.6.1 No assistance of any kind can be given to a competitor during a course

of fire, except that any Range Officer assigned to a stage may issue

safety warnings to a competitor at any time. Such warnings will not be

grounds for the competitor to be awarded a reshoot.

[Flexmoney]

I see nothing overtly wrong with that stage design. Personally, I'd add a few tweaks to it to lessen the likely hood of a 180 violation, but the nature of the stage is fine.

We probably doesn't see enough stages like this on a regular basis in the USA. Therefore they aren't comfortable to us.

[Carmoney]

I understand there may be times that an RO can and should issue reasonable safety warnings to the shooter. It appears to me that 8.6.1 is a very general catch-all rule that allows the RO to deal with unanticipated issues as appropriate to maintain human safety, under pretty isolated instances that can't really be quantified.

Did you bother to read the rest of my post, though? Do you really disagree with the thrust of my comments?

I do not want to hear the RO yelling "muzzle" at me during a stage just because he sees me swinging out to the side to shoot a target that is near the 180 line. Either I broke the 180 or I didn't. Either DQ my ass or keep quiet and let me shoot my stage!

Let's be straight about this--the truth is the word "muzzle" is often used when the command should really be "STOP!--unload and show clear" by ROs who don't have the heart to issue DQs when the violation is not terribly blatant.

I do want to point out this is almost never a problem with well-seasoned Nationals-level ROs.

[BritinUSA]

anybody have a video or stage design from "18"? how bad of a 180 trap was it?

Stage 14 was the 90 degree 'trap from hell' until they changed it before the match started. During the walkthrough before registration the shooter started (essentially) facing up-range in surrender position and had to turn 90 degrees to the left to engage the first target that was on the 90 degree line.

[pjb45]

The Stage was call Quick Exit II. Kind of says it all.

It is now late in the evening and I have been uploading videos so I am probably not at my kindest.

The stage design start position and target placement was poor. As I stated, most people do not draw their gun straight up at a 90 degree angle from their body. I have no idea where a draw stops and becomes part of the shooting sequence but almost everyone had their gun close to breaking the 90 degree on that stage after their pistol left the holster and was mid-chest high.

It was stupid to have a start like that, there was no logical reason other than to set a DQable offense. I am all for safety but really now, is Nationals a rules infraction test or a shooting test.

Just because something can be done does not mean it should be!

[Flexmoney]

I understand there may be times that an RO can and should issue reasonable safety warnings to the shooter. It appears to me that 8.6.1 is a very general catch-all rule that allows the RO to deal with unanticipated issues as appropriate to maintain human safety, under pretty isolated instances that can't really be quantified.

Did you bother to read the rest of my post, though?

I've read it every time you have posted about it, Mike.

Do you really disagree with the thrust of my comments?

Yes. You have a pet peeve against it (which is likely justified), but you mis-state the fact that "USPSA does not employ the muzzle warning. "

I do not want to hear the RO yelling "muzzle" at me during a stage just because he sees me swinging out to the side to shoot a target that is near the 180 line. Either I broke the 180 or I didn't. Either DQ my ass or keep quiet and let me shoot my stage!

You give a valid argument, but that is not the rule. (Well, technically, you a valid point of view. Your argument, however, is in direct opposition to the rule. )

Let's be straight about this--the truth is the word "muzzle" is often used when the command should really be "STOP!--unload and show clear" by ROs who don't have the heart to issue DQs when the violation is not terribly blatant.

That likely happens, and that probably happens for every other safety rule too, right? But that doesn't mean the rule isn't ever properly used.

I know I have (properly) used it...usually with newer shooters at local matches. I don't recall ever using it while running shooters at a Major (though, I did have a "180 trap" stage a while back that sadly caught a few shooters ).

[G-ManBart]

Maybe someone could answer this:

I've seen several videos of right handed shooters on stage 18, and all of them chose to go to the left of the barricade to start. Was it an option to go right? Is it "safer" to go left first (in terms of not breaking the 180)?

Yes, your choice, right or left. We had folks from our squad, all right handed, some go one way, some the other. Going either way was no more safe or unsafe generally but each person is built, sees, handles, moves differently.

You have to learn what works for you best. I believe going right first MAY have been slightly faster for me but I chose left first for safety due to my vision & the way I handle my gun. Of course if I feel I'm safer, I'll go faster or harder, so it was probably a wash in my situation. I also reloaded at the end moving left to right which is more comfortable for me so that made up any time I may have lost if I lost any with my choice.

MLM

For most folks, going up the left side first would be faster. If you started by going up the right side, you had to come a couple of steps farther back on the left side to get the last target. In other words, the last target you would engage when starting on the left was farther down range than vice-versa.

I will say I've never had an RO sneeze after "Are you ready"....I was chuckling to myself thinking "man, don't let the sneeze screw up your run!". I was more than a little slow, and I still don't know why I didn't take my left hand off the gun for half of the run down the left side...at least I have plenty to work on.

Edited October 19, 2010 by G-ManBart

[uno5885]

Yep that stage was an easy one to DQ on. I remember looking stage 18 over when the published the stages and I was very paranoid about DQ'ing on that one also. You handled that well, no one got hurt and you acknowledge the mistake. On the bright side I'm sure you will be an even safer shooter in the future, and will be much more aware of your angles and your positional relationship with the target.

CAZ

18 was the one I was worried about the most. I was super careful on all the stages. We were watching a squad shoot stage 12 on the AM squad on Thursday on one guy broke the 180 off of the start (got DQ'd) and saw another throw a round in the ground 3 feet infront of him (did not get DQ'd, I could not beleive what I saw). The whole match I was super careful. I went slow, watched my gun and had fun.

[Chris Keen]

18 was the one I was worried about the most. I was super careful on all the stages. We were watching a squad shoot stage 12 on the AM squad on Thursday on one guy broke the 180 off of the start (got DQ'd) and saw another throw a round in the ground 3 feet in front of him (did not get DQ'd, I could not beleive what I saw). The whole match I was super careful. I went slow, watched my gun and had fun.

Yup, that was most likely me you saw "throw a round in the ground 3 feet in front of him" on stage 12. I don't know why it happened, but I can help you understand what transpired after that. The RO said he could not see the gun, and therefore did not know exactly what direction it was pointing at the time of the AD. I had engaged 1 target by the time I heard STOP, so I think the RO was unsure of what exactly happened, and could not confirm it with the RM. The RM asked if the round struck the ground within 10 ft. and the RO told him he didn't think so. A DQ needs to be about the facts, and not "I think that's what happened". Obviously I didn't argue the outcome, and took my re-shoot gladly.

I will say this however, from that moment on, I was nervous as hell every time I racked the slide to "Make Ready" or "Unload & Show Clear". Never did find out what caused it.

[ima45dv8]

18 was the one I was worried about the most. I was super careful on all the stages. We were watching a squad shoot stage 12 on the AM squad on Thursday on one guy broke the 180 off of the start (got DQ'd) and saw another throw a round in the ground 3 feet in front of him (did not get DQ'd, I could not beleive what I saw). The whole match I was super careful. I went slow, watched my gun and had fun.

Yup, that was most likely me you saw "throw a round in the ground 3 feet in front of him" on stage 12. I don't know why it happened, but I can help you understand what transpired after that. The RO said he could not see the gun, and therefore did not know exactly what direction it was pointing at the time of the AD. I had engaged 1 target by the time I heard STOP, so I think the RO was unsure of what exactly happened, and could not confirm it with the RM. The RM asked if the round struck the ground within 10 ft. and the RO told him he didn't think so. A DQ needs to be about the facts, and not "I think that's what happened". Obviously I didn't argue the outcome, and took my re-shoot gladly.

I will say this however, from that moment on, I was nervous as hell every time I racked the slide to "Make Ready" or "Unload & Show Clear". Never did find out what caused it.

I get the impression you know where it went. Did it hit within 10 feet of you?

[uno5885]

18 was the one I was worried about the most. I was super careful on all the stages. We were watching a squad shoot stage 12 on the AM squad on Thursday on one guy broke the 180 off of the start (got DQ'd) and saw another throw a round in the ground 3 feet in front of him (did not get DQ'd, I could not beleive what I saw). The whole match I was super careful. I went slow, watched my gun and had fun.

Yup, that was most likely me you saw "throw a round in the ground 3 feet in front of him" on stage 12. I don't know why it happened, but I can help you understand what transpired after that. The RO said he could not see the gun, and therefore did not know exactly what direction it was pointing at the time of the AD. I had engaged 1 target by the time I heard STOP, so I think the RO was unsure of what exactly happened, and could not confirm it with the RM. The RM asked if the round struck the ground within 10 ft. and the RO told him he didn't think so. A DQ needs to be about the facts, and not "I think that's what happened". Obviously I didn't argue the outcome, and took my re-shoot gladly.

I will say this however, from that moment on, I was nervous as hell every time I racked the slide to "Make Ready" or "Unload & Show Clear". Never did find out what caused it.

Chris, I hope you don't think that I was trying to take a stab at you, by no means is that what I ment. We can not control what the RO sees or does. After seeing what I saw on stage 12 I too was nervous and was super deliberate with what I did with my gun. Every stage I had my eyes on what I was doing with the gun. $275 match fee, $400 air fare, $300 for the hotel, I was not going home. If you knew what it took for me to get there, you too would be super careful.

I am glad you were OK and were able to contiune with the match. I hope everything went well.

[Merlin Orr]

I didn't argue the outcome, and took my re-shoot gladly.

.

[moverfive]

Trap? I thought the shooter was responsible for their own muzzle.

That is very true - however, when you force the shooter to move and shoot on the 180 due to stage design, this typically puts the RO on high alert for anything close to the 180. In other words, they may be quicker to stop someone in those situations than in "normal" conditions (and for legitimately arguable reasons). As so many know, when someone is shooting close to the 180 (170 for argument sake), spectators and RO's can actually see their muzzle. But again, the shooter is not breaking the 180. This situation just forces the RO's to be EXTRA watchful and thus potentially quicker to yell "Stop!" And in some cases, stopping folks when they shouldn't be.

This is all why I tell folks, these stage situations is something they need to be watchful for in order to ensure the RO sees what they want to see.....or to ensure they DON'T see what they don't want to see. :-)

But the point is - when a stage forces you to move or shoot on the 180, it does open the door for a RO to yell "Stop" for something may appear to be a safety violation.....and therefore, would be a 180 trap in some cases.

[Chris Keen]

Chris, I hope you don't think that I was trying to take a stab at you, by no means is that what I ment. We can not control what the RO sees or does. After seeing what I saw on stage 12 I too was nervous and was super deliberate with what I did with my gun. Every stage I had my eyes on what I was doing with the gun. $275 match fee, $400 air fare, $300 for the hotel, I was not going home. If you knew what it took for me to get there, you too would be super careful.

I am glad you were OK and were able to contiune with the match. I hope everything went well.

Uno5885 No, not at all. I was just trying to clarify my given situation.

I get the impression you know where it went. Did it hit within 10 feet of you?

I did not see where it hit, but I heard the RO went back with a tape-measure later to see for himself, and found it was "very close". Not sure if that means 10 ft. or 2 ft.

I didn't argue the outcome, and took my re-shoot gladly.

.

Merlin, I'm torn about this. On one hand I know an AD is a likely DQ. But like Uno5885 said "We can not control what the RO sees or does". I also paid allot of money to get there, and I wasn't about to try and overturn what a CRO & RM had just agreed was ok.

If I had had another AD at any time after the 1st one, I would have packed up my gear myself, out of concern for safety. But I did not. I looked over the gun at the safe table prior to my re-shoot (looking for broken / bent ejectors, stuck firing pins, etc.) and again after I got back to my hotel. I called my gunsmith, and detail stripped the gun. I could find no reason not to continue. But yes it made me a little nervous.

[G-ManBart]

Merlin, I'm torn about this. On one hand I know an AD is a likely DQ. But like Uno5885 said "We can not control what the RO sees or does". I also paid allot of money to get there, and I wasn't about to try and overturn what a CRO & RM had just agreed was ok.

Really, it's totally out of your hands at that point unless you are absolutely certain that the bullet hit within 10 feet. Other than an obvious case where you really are certain, you just sit back and let the RO, CRO, and RM decide...which is what you did. R,

[bbbean]

Merlin, I'm torn about this. On one hand I know an AD is a likely DQ. But like Uno5885 said "We can not control what the RO sees or does". I also paid allot of money to get there, and I wasn't about to try and overturn what a CRO & RM had just agreed was ok.

Really, it's totally out of your hands at that point unless you are absolutely certain that the bullet hit within 10 feet. Other than an obvious case where you really are certain, you just sit back and let the RO, CRO, and RM decide...which is what you did. R,

+1. I'd hate to win a match knowing I shouldn't have, but if something is on the line or is a judgment call, I certainly wouldn't go out of my way to get myself DQ'd or pick up a penalty.

[beltjones]

I have to say I think there are certain situations where a shooter ought to DQ himself. If Chris had determined that his gun was unsafe, and he didn't have a backup or something, then he should DQ himself. But that's not really what happened.

A round hit the dirt, no one is exactly sure whether it was within 10 feet, and Chris left it up to the RO/RM to decide. Sounds fine to me.

On the other hand, the people who do something potentially unsafe and then argue about it endlessly with the RO ought to change their behavior, and deserve to get DQed. It's better 100% of the time to let the RO's do their jobs and live with the outcome than to argue and berate them into changing their minds. Just my opinion.

[guns_and_labs]

I can tell you I was VERY nervous sitting down on that stool even with my Ghost holster in semi-lock mode. I can certainly understand how that happened to Taran.

That's why I started stage 4 with my holster fully locked. I would have duct-taped it on, too, if I had had any. I was sure that the gun would fall out as I swayed on that rickety stool...

Stage 18 didn't bother me, except that, on the walkthrough, I couldn't figure out how the RO would follow me and not end up ahead of me. He figured it out, of course.