Open Shooters what is your optic set up?

[Alaskapopo]

I sold my Benelli M4 and I am using the money to fix up an 870 for tactical class (not going to be shooting as much tactical so downgrading the shotgun is not as big of a deal)

and the rest of the money is going towards a Noveske Rogue hunter upper. I also got a used open pistol from another club member recently. So I am going into the open game in three gun. I have an R&R targets open Saiga. I have the pistol covered. For the rifle I am used to using a 14.5 inch Noveske light carbine with a Swarovski 1-6 scope on it. I like the set up but I know a longer stainless barrel will give me more accuracy and reach. What I am conflicted on is optics. I could move my 2.5-10 power night force on off set red dot onto the new Noveske when it arrives or I could stick with the Swarovski. My Swarovski is the older model without a bullet drop compensator. I was thinking that my Nightforce (bullet drop model low velocity reticle) and the red dot would be the ticket for open. I could use the dot on all targets inside of 50 yards and use the scope out past that.

What do you guys in open use. 1 lower power variable or a higher magnification scope and a red dot?

Thanks in advance.

Edited October 13, 2010 by Alaskapopo

[PJ BAD]

I use a Meopta 1-4. Works for me but we don't shoot any distance around here. I like what you are thinking about your setup.

[outerlimits]

TA11 plenty...doctor on the offset

[maineshootah]

What distance / matches do you plan on shooting?

[kellyn]

Leupold 1.5-5X MR/T with CMR2 in JP Mount or 1.1-8X CQBSS as primary sight. Leupold Deltapoint mounted on picantiny rail on VTAC handguard (although a Burkett mount would be better). When I dueled with Jerry at Texas State Carbine, he had US Optics 1-4X and a JPoint on a Burkett mount.

I would stick w/ the Swaro as your primary sight.

[2011BLDR]

S&B Short Dot 1.1-4X plus offset 10MOA Pride Fowler

Out.

2011BLDR

[Alaskapopo]

What distance / matches do you plan on shooting?

Local matches in the state don't go past 200 yards. But I do want to go down south some time.

Pat

[Doug H.]

I have been using the Swaro 1-6 with the circle dot alone for the last year or so. I just put an STS on a Burkett 45 offset mount so that on stages where you have to switch back and forth between close and far targets I don't have to switch power (figure I'm in open anyway might as well use all the advantage). I have only used it once so far but it seems to be quicker than switching power. Plus I don't forget to switch power, which I have done on several occasions. It's amazing how far away the targets look on 1 power!

Doug

[grywlfbg]

My $0.02 is to just stick w/ the 1-6. I don't think the offset red-dot is faster than a good variable with a throw lever. I just haven't seen a stage where you need to shoot one target at 10 yards and then another at 200+ without a position change. Typically you're running up to a position there may be some close targets and then a drop to kneeling, sitting, or prone for the long stuff. With the throw lever I can switch powers during the position change without slowing down.

What I dislike about the offset is having 2 zero's to remember and when do you transition from red-dot to primary optic? 50 yards? What if there's a target at 60 yards?

A 3-9x and and a red-dot is cheaper than a Z6i (which is why I believe it has been a popular setup, plus true 1X variables haven't been around very long) but you've already spent the dough. Also, 10X is way overkill for our game.

Stick w/ the Z6i, add a bipod, and run it.

[Alaskapopo]

My $0.02 is to just stick w/ the 1-6. I don't think the offset red-dot is faster than a good variable with a throw lever. I just haven't seen a stage where you need to shoot one target at 10 yards and then another at 200+ without a position change. Typically you're running up to a position there may be some close targets and then a drop to kneeling, sitting, or prone for the long stuff. With the throw lever I can switch powers during the position change without slowing down.

What I dislike about the offset is having 2 zero's to remember and when do you transition from red-dot to primary optic? 50 yards? What if there's a target at 60 yards?

A 3-9x and and a red-dot is cheaper than a Z6i (which is why I believe it has been a popular setup, plus true 1X variables haven't been around very long) but you've already spent the dough. Also, 10X is way overkill for our game.

Stick w/ the Z6i, add a bipod, and run it.

Thanks you guys have talked me into running the Z6i still. I love the scope.

pat

[Religious Shooter]

I run a Vortex 2-7X with hold-overs built in to the reticle and a Fastfire on a Burkett gen 1 mount.

When I set up my Open upper I took a look at what the local shooters generally run. To a man (and woman) they run an offset RDS. I took a look at what the top Open shooters use... (as noted) Miculek runs an offset RDS... Voight runs an offset RDS (see the cover of a Front Sight several months back) ...Burkett runs an offset RDS.

What did that tell me? Would all those shooters add the extra weight, complexity and cost if it wasn't worth it?

The Z6i is a great scope... for Tactical. The old reticle doesn't have dedicated holdovers. Having shot my Meopta against my Burris/Vortex or my USO with a mil ladder, I've found that dedicated holdovers are way better than having to use and figure out the holds with the K-dot reticle.

Personally I would leave the the Z6i on the older upper and get a new optic for the Open upper.

If you buy a scope directly from Leupold their custom shop can add holdovers to a regular reticle for $40.

https://customshop.leupold.com/custom_shop.php

[Alaskapopo]

I run a Vortex 2-7X with hold-overs built in to the reticle and a Fastfire on a Burkett gen 1 mount.

When I set up my Open upper I took a look at what the local shooters generally run. To a man (and woman) they run an offset RDS. I took a look at what the top Open shooters use... (as noted) Miculek runs an offset RDS... Voight runs an offset RDS (see the cover of a Front Sight several months back) ...Burkett runs an offset RDS.

What did that tell me? Would all those shooters add the extra weight, complexity and cost if it wasn't worth it?

The Z6i is a great scope... for Tactical. The old reticle doesn't have dedicated holdovers. Having shot my Meopta against my Burris/Vortex or my USO with a mil ladder, I've found that dedicated holdovers are way better than having to use and figure out the holds with the K-dot reticle.

Personally I would leave the the Z6i on the older upper and get a new optic for the Open upper.

If you buy a scope directly from Leupold their custom shop can add holdovers to a regular reticle for $40.

https://customshop.leupold.com/custom_shop.php

Thanks for your well thought out reply. I can't afford a new optic at the moment. I will be saving for a new Swarovski with the bullet drop reticle however. I think in the mean time I will try both set ups at the range doing some drills and see wht works well for me. Any drills you have that might help me test which one is the best over all?

Pat

[Religious Shooter]

I'm assuming you mean drills to disprove/prove that an offset RDS is a good thing.

I'd just set up a piece of steel at 200+ yards. Put a barrel/chair at the start point and a barrel/chair at the end point. In between put three (or whatever) paper targets.

From a braced position use your magnified optic and shoot the 200 yard target. Then get up and engage the paper while going to the other barrel/chair.

In one run engage the paper with the RDS. Get A's. Don't just go for brown. In another run power down your scope and use it to engage the paper to see the difference.

Then engage the far steel at the second position using your magnified optic. You should power up in a separate run to see the difference.

This scenario is fairly common. The last USPSA Nationals had two stages that had it. One stage had you engage far steel from a box, then your engaged close paper, then you went up a ramp to engage far steel, then you engaged close paper and then far steel.

2010 RM3G had it... check out Kelly's video:

At :42 brace up a wall and engage far steel. Then you get up and engage close paper. Then you go to another wall and engage far steel 1:31. Etc.

2010 SMM3G had it... you engaged far Larues then went downhill to engage close paper.

You can see Holmes power down his scope. Pretty fast.

Tons of matches have this type of scenario.

I'd rather twist the rifle (a very gross motor skill) than power up or down the scope.

And of course you will have less wear and tear on your scope. Just this past weekend one of my buds busted his Leupold's occular.

[grywlfbg]

Religious Shooter - my contention is that Voight, Miculek, Burkett, etc are running those setups because they've run them for years and that's what they know. They picked those setups back when there weren't many (any?) true 1X variable power scopes. Let's not forget that Daniel (and in a rifle-only match I'm sure some of the other top tactical shooters also) can beat all of those guys w/o an offset RDS so it's a lot more about how much practice you have and what you know than about having a single "optimal" setup.

In my view since Pat is used to the Z6i he should stick w/ that. An offset RDS adds complexity that will slow him down. Sure he may someday catch back up to his current speed but how much better could he be if he simply kept building on what he already knows?

I also contend that in your drill above there is plenty of time between the close paper and dropping into position for the long shots to switch power if you have a throw lever and you practice a bit. In the SMM3G Stage 6 video you posted if Tony had powered down while he was exiting the first position I don't think it would have cost him any time at all.

Finally, if the paper is REALLY close ( ie <2 yards like a couple stages at the BARC this year) you can just cant the rifle and sight down the handguard and point shoot.

Pat, if you're able to set it up both ways and do some timed runs I'd be interested in the results. I have a spare Aimpoint Micro that I could try but w/ my Clark CF handguard it would be a pain to mount it. You're welcome to borrow it if you have a way to mount it.

Edited October 14, 2010 by grywlfbg

[Religious Shooter]

Horner shoots Tactical. He can't have an offset RDS.

At the MG Nationals in Oregon Voight did not run an offset RDS. Relative to the length of his shooting career the offset RDS is a relatively recent change.

If you see Kelly's post... Miculek sometimes runs a 1-4X SN4. The SN4 has been out for years. I did a search and there are indications that the SN4 was around in 1996.

The SN4 1X-4X scope have been around along time.

Have you actually run drills with an offset RDS vs. powering up/down?

[fastshooter03]

Open class I use a Vortex 2.5-10 Viper PST W/Moa reticle and a 45 mounted Fastfire.

Seems to work fine.

Nick

[Alaskapopo]

I plan on doing some drills with both set ups. The only issue now is its coming into winter and that limits the distances I can shoot at the range easily. I may use some reduced targets at 100 yards.

Pat

[Religious Shooter]

Sounds like fun.

[Alaskapopo]

Open class I use a Vortex 2.5-10 Viper PST W/Moa reticle and a 45 mounted Fastfire.

Seems to work fine.

Nick

Hi Nick. When do you use which sight. Do you use the Fastfire inside 50 yards, 25 yards? etc. Also on your Viper have you ever used the 10x in a match? Thanks for your time.

pat

[kellyn]

Horner shoots Tactical. He can't have an offset RDS.

At the MG Nationals in Oregon Voight did not run an offset RDS. Relative to the length of his shooting career the offset RDS is a relatively recent change.

If you see Kelly's post... Miculek sometimes runs a 1-4X SN4. The SN4 has been out for years. I did a search and there are indications that the SN4 was around in 1996.

The SN4 1X-4X scope have been around along time.

Have you actually run drills with an offset RDS vs. powering up/down?

Food for thought, Raine Peltokoski crushed both Daniel (no red dot even though in Open for this match) and Jerry (with a red dot) at Euro Rifle Championship, a straight up rifle match and the largest practical rifle match yet held, using a Swaro 1-6 with no red dot sight, the very sight that Alaskapopo is thinking about moving away from. True Daniel did not have a good match and Jerry had some equipment problems but nonetheless Raine did not need no stinking red dot to defeat two of the very best rifle shooters in the U.S.

As for distances, 25-30 yards is when I start switching over to the primary optic but I think others go a bit further out. I think it is probably due to the fact that I don't really shoot Open that much.

[Alaskapopo]

Horner shoots Tactical. He can't have an offset RDS.

At the MG Nationals in Oregon Voight did not run an offset RDS. Relative to the length of his shooting career the offset RDS is a relatively recent change.

If you see Kelly's post... Miculek sometimes runs a 1-4X SN4. The SN4 has been out for years. I did a search and there are indications that the SN4 was around in 1996.

The SN4 1X-4X scope have been around along time.

Have you actually run drills with an offset RDS vs. powering up/down?

Food for thought, Raine Peltokoski crushed both Daniel (no red dot even though in Open for this match) and Jerry (with a red dot) at Euro Rifle Championship, a straight up rifle match and the largest practical rifle match yet held, using a Swaro 1-6 with no red dot sight, the very sight that Alaskapopo is thinking about moving away from. True Daniel did not have a good match and Jerry had some equipment problems but nonetheless Raine did not need no stinking red dot to defeat two of the very best rifle shooters in the U.S.

As for distances, 25-30 yards is when I start switching over to the primary optic but I think others go a bit further out. I think it is probably due to the fact that I don't really shoot Open that much.

One off topic question if you have time. When you do shoot open what type of handgun and holster set up are you using. I just got a used Caspain 38 super comp and a Ghost holster. I am not used to race holsters yet. I used a STI Edge in Blade Tech DOH before.

The more I think about the optic angle the more I wish I had the cash for a BRT version of my Swarovski. But that will have to wait about 4 to 6 months. I really like the Swarovski I am leaning towards staying with it at this point. But I do want to try some drills at the range.

Pat

Edited October 15, 2010 by Alaskapopo

[orangeman711]

I went with a Leupold 2.5x8 Mark4 and a J-Point mounted on a Burkett offset mount for everything up to 75yds. Works great for me. Good luck with whatever you decide to go with.

[Doug H.]

One off topic question if you have time. When you do shoot open what type of handgun and holster set up are you using. I just got a used Caspain 38 super comp and a Ghost holster. I am not used to race holsters yet. I used a STI Edge in Blade Tech DOH before.

The more I think about the optic angle the more I wish I had the cash for a BRT version of my Swarovski. But that will have to wait about 4 to 6 months. I really like the Swarovski I am leaning towards staying with it at this point. But I do want to try some drills at the range.

Pat

I also have a old Caspian .38 super that I use as my open pistol. I took a BladeTech holster that I had laying around and hit it with some heat, got out the Dremel and made myself a holster. Works good and feels more secure to me (just my opinion JJ) than my high speed rigs. COM also does a good open kydex holster, Busyhawk has one and really likes it. If you need high cap mags for the Caspian(I get 29 rounds), contact Higher Capacity, I have one and it works perfect.

Doug

[RiggerJJ]

I use a 1.5-6 Burris or a 1.5-9 Valdata, depending on my moods....but with both I use a 45* mounted JPoint. I have it mounted up close at about the same eye relief as the primary optic on a Burkett mount. I also used a 45* JPoint in Limited division at this year's nationals (with precision irons on top). I just like the 45* reddot. The learning curve was nothing really to mention, just shot it a few times and it seemed natural. I usually go to the primary at about 25 yards, depending on how tight the shots are.

For my pistol I use a Ghost, but I did add a barrel cup to it for more support. It's learning curve was also nothing really to mention. The security it provides when locked is exactly the ticket in 3 gun. Put the lock back and flick it with your middle finger to unlock when its time to draw. Need more security? Add a STRONG rubber band to the lock lever (down to the bottom of the holster frame) to help hold it in the down and locked position. Need even more security? Lock the lever UP and flick it with your thumb to draw. You can even put the rubberband around the front of the holster to help hold the lever in the up and locked position. No worrying about a dropped pistol. Doug has heard me say this before; In 3 gun I have seen more pistols dropped out of Kydex type friction holsters than any other holster, so "buyer beware"...I've used one before in Open, but just didn't like having to worry about the pistol possibly dropping all the time...I do use a Sherpa with a level 2 positive lock for my 1911 in HeMan. Fast draws are not gonna be the deciding factor in winning a 3 gun match, but a dropped pistol just may be...so I think the added insurance of a locking holster is worth it.

jj

Edited October 15, 2010 by RiggerJJ

[caz41]

COM also does a good open kydex holster, Busyhawk has one and really likes it. Doug

Do they actually make a kydex holster for open guns, or are you talking about heating and cutting a normal kydex holster?