What's the big deal about a shorter case?

[AzShooter]

Ok, at a recent match a few of us got together and were discussing the benefits of using shorter cases to speed up someone's reload.

Lots of people are now using .38 short colts believing they go in or out of the gun faster.

Let's look at that. It was suggested to me that using my short colts was no advantage.

When you are reloading, you still have to slam the ejector rod the same length no matter what cases you are using, .357, .38 or short colt. Sure the case may drop out sooner but undetectably so.

When you are inserting the cases you are still moving your hands to the same position no matter what the case lenth. Are you shortening the stroke using shorter brass or just moving your hand a .10 inch longer to get the cases in. Again, indectectable difference.

I started thinking about this and ran a few tests on my own. To me, my friend's observations were correct. During 10 reloads with .357 , .38 and .38 short colt brass my reloads averaged the same time.

Try it for your self and let me kknow if I'm wrong. I'd love to tell my friend that he doesn't know everything. YMMW.

[Hi-Power Jack]

I don't shoot revolver (YOu'll get plenty of responses

from people who do, very soon) but a revolver shooter

told me it's because the longer cartridges wiggle more

in the speed loaders - the shorter cases were tighter

and more prone to enter the chambers more easily?

Let's see if he was right ...

[RevolverJockey]

I shoot .40 in my 610 because of:

brass cost

3mm more room to foul the cylinder before I have seating issues

clearance issues with 10mm brass and xframe grips

10mm fits a lot looser in clips than .40

I wouldn't do it if it cost more. I am sure James or someone who shoots a lot of 38 short colt will chime in. After playing with a 625 in ACP and GAP, I couldn't see much of a difference. I reload weak hand.

Lee

[GMM50]

Hi:

Just compare reloading 357 vs 45 both in speed loaders.

If everything else is equal.....

The 45 is way faster. It's just plain easier to line up.

George

Edited September 23, 2010 by GMM50

[underlug]

Ok, at a recent match a few of us got together and were discussing the benefits of using shorter cases to speed up someone's reload.

Lots of people are now using .38 short colts believing they go in or out of the gun faster.

Let's look at that. It was suggested to me that using my short colts was no advantage.

When you are reloading, you still have to slam the ejector rod the same length no matter what cases you are using, .357, .38 or short colt. Sure the case may drop out sooner but undetectably so.

When you are inserting the cases you are still moving your hands to the same position no matter what the case lenth. Are you shortening the stroke using shorter brass or just moving your hand a .10 inch longer to get the cases in. Again, indectectable difference.

I started thinking about this and ran a few tests on my own. To me, my friend's observations were correct. During 10 reloads with .357 , .38 and .38 short colt brass my reloads averaged the same time.

Try it for your self and let me kknow if I'm wrong. I'd love to tell my friend that he doesn't know everything. YMMW.

I use long colt brass for one reason. It has nothing to do with the brass going in. To me, the beauty of the moonclip is in the ejection and, by using the slightly shorter case, I get fewer hangups i.e the clip not cleanly clearing the cylinder. Those with better (more vertical) technique may not benefit. I load them slightly long.

[Bubber]

The shorter the case, the more forgiving it is to load. On the longer cases it has to be more precise to work. The shorter cases gives you more room from the grip to the cylinder face and any movement in the clip is not as magnified as the longer case. There is a trade off on case capacity and the more powders you can use to get the desired accuracy and velocity on the longer cases and less choices of powders on the shorter case. My thoughts anyway. later rdd

[westczek]

I'm finally making the switch to Short Colt from Specials. I think the main thing I'm looking for is a shorter stroke on the ejector rod and fewer hangups. It probably won't help me a huge amount, but I wanted to try it. I'm not sure how much the Short Colt will help in loading and I will unlikely be able to tell. I'm switching to Starline Brass and Hearthco clips which reduce the wobble, a lot. I was using thinner clips and Remington Brass in my 38 Special setup.

Westczek

[Carmoney]

I converted from Specials to Short Colts a couple years ago.

I think the advantages mentioned above are real. None of them (in and of itself) is a huge issue, but you add several little advantages together and it becomes meaningful. I'm sure my reloads, on average, are slightly faster with Short Colts.

Moreover, I don't think anyone has ever presented a real downside to using the Short Colts--other than cost and availability of the brass, I suppose.

[underlug]

The shorter the case, the more forgiving it is to load. On the longer cases it has to be more precise to work. The shorter cases gives you more room from the grip to the cylinder face and any movement in the clip is not as magnified as the longer case. There is a trade off on case capacity and the more powders you can use to get the desired accuracy and velocity on the longer cases and less choices of powders on the shorter case. My thoughts anyway. later rdd

Saying it is only an ejection issue for me is just another way of saying I am too slow to make insertion an issue. Unless I totally blow the reload, I am never waiting to close the cylinder

[DougCarden]

For me, there is less of a case/moonclip to eject from the gun in a real time situation. I have had full 38 Special cases/moons get hung up when I am going at full speed whereas with the Short colts I have not been able to make it happen again.

This is at a reload intensive match, such as the PSA Shootout, in which you are doing 4-8 reloads off the table, belt or whatever you want to do. In shooting the IRC the last two years with Shorts I have not had an ejection problem as well.

I know for myself, I can reload the Shorts faster moonclipped with a true roundnose bullet than I can Specials with the same bullet. I went out with the timer and ammo and tried it. This is true for myself, but may not be the same for anyone else.

Of course with all the money I have tied up in Short colt brass and Hearthco moons it would be silly to say anything otherwise too.....

DougC

[JAustin]

Ever try to put a cat in bucket of water?

Wobble factor is everything! Consistantly fast is the goal. If your good enough to to be consistant with a high wobble factor don't worry.

Same with your holder, if you never grab at an empty holder or never grab two at once and a long lift doesn't slow you down, don't worry you don't need new equipment. Just remember we've all seen matches decided by the amount of time it takes to recover from a bad reload.

Oh by the way I lost one inch af accuracy at 25 yards and close to 3 at 50 using shorts, no change in accuracy between 357,38,and long.

See you at a range. James

[Carmoney]

I have had excellent accuracy with Short Colts in my guns, and have not lost anything appreciable even at 50 yards. Perhaps it varies from gun to gun. I'm running a 6.5" 27-7 Bangers 8-shot, and a 5" 627PC with no special throating treatment.

[westczek]

Ok, I used Short Colt for the first time in a USPSA match today. Since I was shooting minor anyway, I'm sold.

Westczek

[underlug]

I have had excellent accuracy with Short Colts in my guns, and have not lost anything appreciable even at 50 yards. Perhaps it varies from gun to gun. I'm running a 6.5" 27-7 Bangers 8-shot, and a 5" 627PC with no special throating treatment.

I've recently gotten a bit of improvement with long colts using light/fast bullet combo. What are you doing?

[GlockCanMan]

Tagged for reference.

Edited September 28, 2010 by GlockCanMan

[revoman]

Out of my 627 V-Comp using a 150 grain LRN, Short Colt brass and 4.1 VVN310 seated at 1.165. I can put 3 rounds on a 1" target paster at 50 yds and of course that is using a sandbag rest. No special work done to the gun besides a trigger job.

Edited September 28, 2010 by revoman

[Tom E]

Out of my 627 V-Comp using a 150 grain LRN, Short Colt brass and 4.1 VVN310 seated at 1.165. I can put 3 rounds on a 1" target paster at 50 yds and of course that is using a sandbag rest.

50 rds downrange and 3 hit the paster?

[DougCarden]

Tom, I guarantee that Dean shot 3 shots, and quit when he saw the group....... at least that is what I would have done.....

DougC

[TMC]

I've been using the same load in short colts for 5 years now. Out of the same old gun I've shot since 2000 they will all go into the X ring at 50 from prone, I haven't tried from sandbags for a bench rest but that accuracy is good enough for me.

The wobble factor is what did it for me.

[revoman]

Out of my 627 V-Comp using a 150 grain LRN, Short Colt brass and 4.1 VVN310 seated at 1.165. I can put 3 rounds on a 1" target paster at 50 yds and of course that is using a sandbag rest.

50 rds downrange and 3 hit the paster?

2 in the top left corner and one in the center. Problem is I did this one week before the IRC as I had been shooting my revolver built for 38 short colt and I decided to take the V-Comp to the IRC because of this. Even though the gun shoots great switching from a light weight revolver to a V-Comp which is a lot heavier and not getting practice time with it. I bombed at the IRC. Next year I will stay with one revolver and never switch 1 week before a major match. By the way my revolver built for 38 short colt will keep about a 2 to 2 1/2" group at 50 yds with the same load.

[Tom E]

By the way my revolver built for 38 short colt will keep about a 2 to 2 1/2" group at 50 yds with the same load.

"built for 38 short colt" in what way? A shortened "no throat" cylinder?

[revoman]

I don't know how to tie in another post but if you type in "baby 38 short colt" in the search you will get 2 hits and go the the one titled New Baby and you will see 2 pictures of the revolver I am talking about. Yes the cylinder was cut back and a new 38 super barrel was put on with the forcing cone extended back to the short cylinder. Even though the cylinder no longer has any throats per say all I would accomplish if I had them would be a cleaner gun as more gas does get by the forcing cone. I would probably be able to drop a little in powder charge as I would not be losing as much out the sides. I did find a place that would build me a cylinder with the throats but starting at $500.00 and going up I can buy a lot of cleaner for that.

[revoman]

Out of my 627 V-Comp using a 150 grain LRN, Short Colt brass and 4.1 VVN310 seated at 1.165. I can put 3 rounds on a 1" target paster at 50 yds and of course that is using a sandbag rest.

50 rds downrange and 3 hit the paster?

Next time I go to the range and if I can repeat the feat I will post a picture just for you.

[glockwerkes]

I don't know how to tie in another post but if you type in "baby 38 short colt" in the search you will get 2 hits and go the the one titled New Baby and you will see 2 pictures of the revolver I am talking about. Yes the cylinder was cut back and a new 38 super barrel was put on with the forcing cone extended back to the short cylinder. Even though the cylinder no longer has any throats per say all I would accomplish if I had them would be a cleaner gun as more gas does get by the forcing cone. I would probably be able to drop a little in powder charge as I would not be losing as much out the sides. I did find a place that would build me a cylinder with the throats but starting at $500.00 and going up I can buy a lot of cleaner for that.

I couldn't resist taking a look at it, so for everyone else:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=42570&st=0&p=500267&hl=baby%2038%20short%20colt&fromsearch=1entry500267

[Tom E]

Next time I go to the range and if I can repeat the feat I will post a picture just for you.

A 16 rd (2 cylinders full) group would be more meaningfull. My 627-5 with 6" PC barrel puts my short load into 5" at 50 yds. No bragging rights there, but my 6" 14-7 will put the same load into 2". Go figure. Both rested with optics.