Monday morning rules question

[Gary Stevens]

I agree with George on about 95 percent of this. Where I differ is I don't really care what part of the body "trapped" the gun, arm, hand, etc. Our book says you can't pick the gun up after you drop it, outside of the course of fire. The picking up requires a conscious effort, trapping a gun on your leg is more of a reflexive action.

If the individual trapped the gun, and then called for an RO to retrieve it for them, then I don't see a DQ action.

Absent direction from NROI otherwise, that is where I stand.

Kinder and gentler since 9-13-10.

Gary

I'm trying to figure out what you two are babbling about. I'm only 95% joking.

Lets see if I got this right.

Gary says its ok to trap a gun that has fallen out of the holster as long as the shooter calls for a RO to retrive it from it's trapped position. As long as no hands are involved its all good.

George says if it falls out of the holster and the shooter traps it against the body with anything, he's done. 10.5.1

??

(I'm with George. I think. About 95% sure )

Nope. George says if you trap it, call the RO for help, and don't use your hand, you are OK. If you use your hand, you are DQ'd.

Gary says if you trap it, call for the RO for help, no DQ. I don't care what you use to trap the gun.

So if I'm shooting in a COF, and a wasp lands on my left arm, and I reflexively brush it off with my right arm, breaking the 180, would you say it's OK since I didn't consciously do it?

If you start allowing people to get away with violating safety rules based on their intent, things are going to get really interesting.

If you are within the COF there is a different standard.

Is there a current rule or interpretation to support that?

I would refer you to a dropped gun, within the course of fire DQ no other remedy. Outside the course of fire, no DQ unless you pick it up.

Two different standards for the same action.

[Corey]

Even a loaded gun would be better to let it hit the deck, assuming the internal safety features are still properly functional. Ask my buddy about the 45ACP hole he has in his bedroom wall. He was loading his 45 up after cleaning it (it was a carry gun) and had been having hand problems and pinched nevers. Shot of pain went through his fingers and he dropped the gun with a round in the chamber. Instincts kicked in and he reached for it grabbing it before it landed.....and subsequently putting a bullet through his wall into his sister's abandoned bedroom .

[mhs]

I would refer you to a dropped gun, within the course of fire DQ no other remedy. Outside the course of fire, no DQ unless you pick it up.

Two different standards for the same action.

Actually, two different rules, one for each circumstance, clearly specified by the rulebook.

[Gary Stevens]

I would refer you to a dropped gun, within the course of fire DQ no other remedy. Outside the course of fire, no DQ unless you pick it up.

Two different standards for the same action.

Actually, two different rules, one for each circumstance, clearly specified by the rulebook.

Dropped gun. Two different rules, two different circumstances, two different standards.

Your mileage may vary.

[Flexmoney]

I am gonna have to go read a bit now because, right now, I disagree with both of you. About 95%

Pull up and old thread on this same topic and see what it says. As I recall... anything but letting it fall was a DQ.

[Singlestack]

I am gonna have to go read a bit now because, right now, I disagree with both of you. About 95%

Pull up and old thread on this same topic and see what it says. As I recall... anything but letting it fall was a DQ.

Thats my opinion but I have not found it yet. I do recall the thread you are talking about.

[GrumpyOne]

Just for the sake of non argument, can't we just say it's better to let it drop? Everyone agrees that it is no DQ as long as you don't pick it up or catch it in your hands. To me, it seems to be the safest thing to do, from both a safety stand point and a "I don't wanna go home yet but I have a DQ!" standpoint.

[Seth]

I like it when folks argue with Gary and George... let me ruin the surprise...if you get yourself caught in such a circumstance, there's a good chance that one of the two of them will be the Rangemaster staring you in the face!

[Singlestack]

I found the thread I was thinking about.

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=91230&hl=dropped gun, catch&st=0

[mhs]

I would refer you to a dropped gun, within the course of fire DQ no other remedy. Outside the course of fire, no DQ unless you pick it up.

Two different standards for the same action.

Actually, two different rules, one for each circumstance, clearly specified by the rulebook.

Dropped gun. Two different rules, two different circumstances, two different standards.

Your mileage may vary.

My mileage may vary from yours, because I'm trying to follow the rules. I'm not applying unofficial "standards".

[Singlestack]

Neither is Gary.

[mhs]

Neither is Gary.

Gary's not applying them, or they're not unofficial?

[aztecdriver]

John, I hear what you are saying - the previous thread is clearly about a handled gun, as defined by handling -

Handling . . . . . . . . . . . . .(As in “handling a firearm”) The act of manipulating, holding, or gripping a firearm while the trigger is functionally accessible.

Is there any doubt that the previous thread had to do with "gripping" the gun with the hand? That's clearly a DQ. What I'm trying to get my head around is if a trapped gun against your side with a forearm, is considering "HOLDING" per that definition, or whether it requires a hand on the weapon to qualify as Handling per the definition.

Bear with this a second, I'm going to try and step through this. The definition of a Dropped Gun is:

Dropped Gun . . . . . . . . . . .(during the course of fire) A condition in which a competitor loses control of their handgun. Loss of control does not require the handgun to land on the ground or other range surface or prop. It occurs anytime the handgun is no longer in control of either hand, even if it is trapped against part of the body or caught in midair.

There are those that say this has no bearing on the rule, but if you read the following rule, it USES the definition of a dropped gun, just augments the definition with conditions that apply to the out of COF condition.

10.5.14 Retrieving a dropped handgun. Dropped handguns must always be retrieved by a Range Officer who will, after checking and/or clearing the handgun, place it directly into the competitor’s gun case, gun bag or holster. Dropping an unloaded handgun or causing it to fall outside of a course of fire is not an infraction, however, a competitor who retrieves a dropped handgun will receive a match disqualification.

Handling requires direct control of the handgun. If it's trapped against the body, it's not under control and not being handled, It should still considered to be dropped and not retrieved. An RO should be able to retrieve it from his side. That is how I think the rules are being applied.

I'm not advocating trapping the gun as it falls out of the holster, in fact, the only time it's happened to me was when a friend of mine and I were pasting opposite sides of the stage and we both moved to the middle at the same time and bumped hips, it unlocked his holster and we both watched his gun rock out of his holster and hit the dirt. As it was happening we both put our hands above our shoulders and backed up. "Um, Boz, would you mind getting this for us."

Grabbing for any gun when it's moving without your control is a bad idea, supposedly unloaded or not, IMHO. I hope I have trained myself not to. It might be worth 2800, but my life is far more - and I don't want to get in the habit. I'm just looking for the rules interpretation that calls for the DQ. I haven't seen an interpretation or clarification that would call pressing the gun against your side as handling, there is no direct control of the handgun.

[Nik Habicht]

Aztec,

see if this helps: Draw the gun, and press it into your side with your hand -- is that handling? The Gun's in your hand with the trigger exposed, right? Now compare that to the various scenarios -- could you fault an RO who dq's a shooter who tries to trap his falling blaster, with the end result being that the gun rests in between the hand and body?

Guns in hands, outside of safety areas/RO supervision, are one of the steps required to get someone hurt on the range. I'm willing to consider exceptional circumstances, but I'm also willing to disqualify competitors who take an albeit inadvertent step toward getting someone hurt on the range....

[Singlestack]

How about this for you guys that think a "trapped" gun against the body is not "handling". I walk to the safe area, pull out my pistol and stick it under my arm. Now I go walking around. A RO ask me WTF are you doing? I simply tell him it jumped out of my holster and would he kindly put it back for me?

[aztecdriver]

Nik,

Hands or not, I'm trying to fit the book. I get it, I don't reach for the gun when it's going down BUT in the situation described SPECIFICALLY by the OP, it doesn't sound like the gun has started to fall here in that it was almost dangling by the magwell and the sleeve strings of the jacket. It's still partially in the holster. The guy instead of using his forearm to press it right in that position and call an RO, just leans over, pushes his hip out and miraculously stops the gun by balancing it right there. He's DQ'd because he didn't let it fall and is "holding" it on his hip? Is he in control of the weapon. Fit the book and I'm with you - as I stated, I agree and have done that before.

~my man stack -

You missed one important point, the gun has to leave the holster as defined by 10.5.14. Otherwise, trapping it does you no good and you never stopped handling the gun from the safe area. Remember, it has to do with loss of control of the handgun, not just the trapping. I contend, according to the rules, that 10.5.14 states the gun is dropped until "control" of it is regained, whether it be trapped or dropped on the ground. Obviously if it is caught in mid-air, control is regained and the gun is considered retrieved - DQ.

As I stated earlier, I agree with you that it's a safety issue. I just don't see the fit in the rules. I want my explanation to be un-arbable. There clearly is a difference of interpretation of the rules here. I think this is an extreme exceptional edge case though - when was the last time you saw someone reach for something falling and not use their hand?

[Singlestack]

~my man stack -

You missed one important point, the gun has to leave the holster as defined by 10.5.14. Otherwise, trapping it does you no good and you never stopped handling the gun from the safe area. Remember, it has to do with loss of control of the handgun, not just the trapping. I contend, according to the rules, that 10.5.14 states the gun is dropped until "control" of it is regained, whether it be trapped or dropped on the ground. Obviously if it is caught in mid-air, control is regained and the gun is considered retrieved - DQ.

As I stated earlier, I agree with you that it's a safety issue. I just don't see the fit in the rules. I want my explanation to be un-arbable. There clearly is a difference of interpretation of the rules here. I think this is an extreme exceptional edge case though - when was the last time you saw someone reach for something falling and not use their hand?

~my boy driver

If I'm walking around with a gun under my arm and I'm not in a safe area and you spot me, are you going to think "hmmmm 'ol stack musta lost his freakin mind while he was in the safe area and forgot to holster his gun."? I don't think so. Your gonna say "hey dumbass! why is you gun under your arm?". At that point I'm gonna look at you and smile and say "I was doing jumping jacks and thats where it landed. Would you kindly out it back in my holster? OBTW, sorry my muzzzel is pointing at your chest."

[Gary Stevens]

This will be my last post on this topic as I am somewhat tired of the insinuations from some.

The problem with all of these issues is in the details. One views a word in a particular context and another views the same word in a different context. Both are giving it their best reading, but they lead to different results.

I note that the new definition of "Handling a firearm" includes the word "holding". I have been looking at the trusty dictionary and find that holding can also be retaining-keeping-retention.

This strict definition most likely means that George and I are both wrong because if you retain with your forearm you are probably still guilty of handling, IMO.

Most often we get into these conundrums because an action does not neatly fit into a precut box. We then have to read the rules and figure out how to proceed and sometimes our decisions do not fit neatly within any rule or definition.

It is, IMO, unreasonable to expect a shooter to deliberately let their gun fall to the ground, as they ponder and make a decision that this is better than being disqualified. As I said before, these are reflex actions, not thought out actions and they happen outside the COF.

I am probably going to be outvoted on this matter, and that is OK. I also understand that trapping your gun on your body, when it is accidently knocked out of your holster, was not part of the discussion on the definition of handling that I participated in, at least not that I remember.

[George Jones]

The problem with extreme hypotheticals is that they are extreme hypotheticals.

[Singlestack]

Sometimes it takes the absurd to illustrate the obvious.

[mhs]

My mileage may vary from yours, because I'm trying to follow the rules. I'm not applying unofficial "standards".

This will be my last post on this topic as I am somewhat tired of the insinuations from some.

I apologize. That was rude of me, and uncalled for.

[Flexmoney]

This strict definition most likely means that George and I are both wrong because if you retain with your firearm you are probably still guilty of handling, IMO.

Gary, that jives with what I recall in prior conversations on the topic. It probably jives with what other experienced officials have said on it in past discussions (maybe even you and George?). .

BTW, thanks for posting.

[ima45dv8]

BTW, thanks for posting.

Ditto. I appreciate the RMI-level insights you guys offer.

[BayouSlide]

Pushing these hypothetical situations to the extreme is extremely valuable in clarifying our thinking about the issues involved. Kudos to all involved. Much better examining such issues here, rather than when something from the twilight zone lands in our laps during a match.

Curtis