Low and to the left

[doubleforte78]

I'm a fairly new shooter and I'm trying to build solid fundamentals. I shoot a production Glock 17 in IDPA and a little USPSA along with pins at my local range. Lately my shooting has deteriorated despite regular dry fire practice and I'm hitting a couple of inches low and left on half or more of my shots. Talk about frustrating. I'm planning on putting some groups from a rest to work the trigger but I feel a lack of direction in my practice and development. Any ideas?

[Flexmoney]

I'm a fairly new shooter and I'm trying to build solid fundamentals. I shoot a production Glock 17 in IDPA and a little USPSA along with pins at my local range. Lately my shooting has deteriorated despite regular dry fire practice and I'm hitting a couple of inches low and left on half or more of my shots. Talk about frustrating. I'm planning on putting some groups from a rest to work the trigger but I feel a lack of direction in my practice and development. Any ideas?

There are about a billion threads on this. Do a search. You should find lots of helpful info already posted.

[cali shot doc]

Probably has alot to do with trigger control. I was the same way but first I went to a 15 yd range and really focused on where my gun shot with the sights from a rest and standing then went to 25 to see again. I learned that I really have to cover my target up at 25 yds with my xd9 (factory sights).

Everytime I go to the range I do what I call The Russian Roulette Drill (don't know the exact name of the drill but this made sense to me). Get some snap caps or have some dummy rounds made and throw them into your magazine without looking or have a buddy load your mag for you. When you come across the dummy round you will probably flinch and anticipate the recoil. Work on having a smooth trigger pull so when you do come across a dummy round your sights stay still and don't move. I'm still working on my trigger control but i'm a 1000x more accurate than i was before. It's also great with teaching you how to clear a malfunction safe and fast!

Hope this helps

csd

[Field]

Everytime I go to the range I do what I call The Russian Roulette Drill (don't know the exact name of the drill but this made sense to me). Get some snap caps or have some dummy rounds made and throw them into your magazine without looking or have a buddy load your mag for you. When you come across the dummy round you will probably flinch and anticipate the recoil. Work on having a smooth trigger pull so when you do come across a dummy round your sights stay still and don't move. I'm still working on my trigger control but i'm a 1000x more accurate than i was before. It's also great with teaching you how to clear a malfunction safe and fast!

this is smart

[Singlestack]

IMO, this drill is useless. I guarantee that if you do this drill with anybody thats been shooting for a long time they will drive the gun forward every time. This is a lot different from a flinch. A flinch is pre ignition and what you see when the gun does not fire is a conditioned response.

[G-ManBart]

Here's one of the threads:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=108104&view=findpost&p=1229244

[G-ManBart]

IMO, this drill is useless. I guarantee that if you do this drill with anybody thats been shooting for a long time they will drive the gun forward every time. This is a lot different from a flinch. A flinch is pre ignition and what you see when the gun does not fire is a conditioned response.

+1

[doubleforte78]

Interesting. I have used snap caps in the past and was really beating myself up over "driving the gun forward". Always assumed it was a problem. I think my problem is deinitely trigger control. I'm pretty smooth until right before the break where I tend to yank.

[Field]

idk at this point whenever i have been surpised by an empty chamber or a round that didnt go off i hardly moved or did anything, which was somewhat reassuring.

[G-ManBart]

idk at this point whenever i have been surpised by an empty chamber or a round that didnt go off i hardly moved or did anything, which was somewhat reassuring.

It shouldn't be if you want to be able to shoot accurately and fast...

[ck1]

The low-left affliction is like the new Glock-shooters right of passage... hang in there.

Really concentrate on pressing the trigger so it's moving perfectly straight-back (at first it'll probably feel almost as though you are pulling back diagonally towards your right shoulder, it'll become more natural feeling in time), dry-fire this way about a zillion times to make it muscle-memory and remind yourself that the Glock's lightness will not forgive trigger-press glitches that a heavier da/sa gun will.

The other big thing is your grip, do some research and really dial-in a consistent and repeatable thumbs-forward grip, if your support-hand wrist feels weird canted/rolled outward then you're probably doing it right, just like the trigger-press it's counter-intuitive at first but will become normal after enough reps.

Do these things and I think you'll find your POI moving to where you want it to be, hang in there it can be frustrating, remind yourself that dry-fire costs nothing and you'll get it.

[doubleforte78]

Lots of good ideas. Thanks!

[benos]

If you've ever shot a revolver accurately double action, pull the Glock trigger the same way - roll the trigger straight through while never changing the pull speed from start to finish.

be

[Jaxshooter]

Beginning shooters tend to shoot low left do to increasing the pressure in the fingers of the strong hand as they are pulling the trigger. Milking the grip with the fingers. Check to see if that could be a problem.

[doubleforte78]

"Rolling through the trigger" has really helped. I found that I was pulling nice and smooth right up until the break where I would pull too quickly. I can do it slowly, but now I've got to get the tempo up...

[cyburg]

Remember your fingers were not desigbed to work independantly. When you grip an item you generaly use all your fingers and thumb while all apply presure. So as a shooter we have to train our fingers to work independantly. One finger pulling back while the others just hang out.

[doubleforte78]

The replies to this post have really helped me with my trigger control. As long as I don't rush, I'm putting my shots right where I want them now. Thanks!

[carlosa]

Also you might have developed a flinch...

This will not be cured by dry firing. To much dryfiring can actualy make a flinch worst! Sence your buddy is not used to the laud noise and recoil of the discharging firearm.

One of the best ways to see if your flinching and stoping it is to dump a couple of houndred rounds into a berm as fast as you can (this also helps cure trigger control, and bad gripp).

You will feel your face flinching on the first few shots but will shortly stop as your face can't flinch as fast as you can pull the trigger then you will start to see the magical bouncing front sight as the gun recoils, which pretty much means your good for a while.

It takes a few houndred rounds every so often at the beginning to keep you fixed. But over time it will get ingrained

Seriously not enough people in our sport ever do this.

But it's a must do exercise.

[Dwight Stearns]

IMO, this drill is useless. I guarantee that if you do this drill with anybody thats been shooting for a long time they will drive the gun forward every time. This is a lot different from a flinch. A flinch is pre ignition and what you see when the gun does not fire is a conditioned response.

I agree with your concept but not your definition. A flinch is a reaction to a stimulus and cannot be pre-ignition. Gun movement when experiencing a dummy round, empty chamber or a failure to fire is recoil anticipation. When the mind knows the split second the firearm is going to go off, it attempts to compensate for the recoil that is about to happen. The gun is driven forward and down... unfortunately before ignition. As the shooter progresses in skill the mind learns to perform this act post ignition. So far I have not been able to discover any magic technique to quickly turn a pre-ignition push into a post-ignition push. The best I have found to accellerate this change is proper grip, keeping the eye(s) open when firing and to truely see (be conscious) of what the front sight is doing clear through ignition. If there is a pre-ignition push the shooter will see the front sight dip slightly right before ignition. Once the shooter truely sees that movement, the mind will begin to learn to delay that push.

And yes the dummy or snap cap drill is useless. If a shooter doesn't move the gun when the snap cap is experienced, the muzzle jump when experiencing a live round will be excessive. The only way to shoot a handgun at high speed is to use muscle to push the gun back down out of recoil. Ya just gotta wait till the sights lift.

Dwight

[2alpha]

See the front sight and it will fix itself.

[Mikethor]

See the front sight and it will fix itself.

Well been shooting for about a month now and the majority of my shots not all ( still managed the occasional good group) were hitting around the eight to nine o'clock position. I have a sig 1911 with night sights which makes seeing the target difficult as it has a thick front sight however this is no excuse.

No matter what I tried the shots generally went left except when I stopped trying and just shot 'instinctively'.

Went to the range this morning with the sole goal of moving my groups to the right and it happened not all mind you but a vast improvement. What I did differently was a slight grip change but the biggest part was releasing the trigger more smoothly after each shot. Anyway it is progress and I walked away happy! This Sig is my first handgun and in .45 with a 5lb trigger and that combined with the night sights leaves no room for user error. Just got the Brian Enos book for xmas as well.

[CANDERSEN]

When this happens to me - I use a dummy rounds - close my eyes load the magazine not knowing where in the stack the dummy(s) are. Usually it is a trigger jerk / anticipating the recoil. I tend to concentrate more on the first shot; not so much on the second.

[doubleforte78]

Wow it has been. Long time since I posted this! My low left problem was mostly due to trigger control and support hand technique. Lately I've been thinking a lot about the support hand. U hear a lot of shooters say that the support hand- strong hand grip ratio should be 60-40 but I think this is a misinterpretation of reality. It seems to me that the grip strength should be 50/50 for symmetrical purposes, however the support hand should have more tension to help guide the gun in recoil. To be über. clear- I'm saying that grip pressure is often confused with muscle tension. The support hand needs to very firm and as flat to the side of the pistol as possible to facilitate a flat plane of recoil while the trigger hand needs to be relaxed enough to move smoothly and quickly. I truly believe that any good shooter applies the same amount of pressure with both hands. Thoughts?

[carlosa]

Wow it has been. Long time since I posted this! My low left problem was mostly due to trigger control and support hand technique. Lately I've been thinking a lot about the support hand. U hear a lot of shooters say that the support hand- strong hand grip ratio should be 60-40 but I think this is a misinterpretation of reality. It seems to me that the grip strength should be 50/50 for symmetrical purposes, however the support hand should have more tension to help guide the gun in recoil. To be über. clear- I'm saying that grip pressure is often confused with muscle tension. The support hand needs to very firm and as flat to the side of the pistol as possible to facilitate a flat plane of recoil while the trigger hand needs to be relaxed enough to move smoothly and quickly. I truly believe that any good shooter applies the same amount of pressure with both hands. Thoughts?

If you haven't seen this check it out..

There's some good stuff about grip

[doubleforte78]

Man, great video! Interesting what Rob says about coming off the trigger in fast splits. I've been mulling this topic over and have found that I can move my finger faster and more consistently when I cover about a centimeter or more of space than I can when I try to cover a smaller incriment. To test the maximum efficiency of your trigger finger try this- lay your hand relaxed on a flat surface and try to tap your trigger finger as fast and as evenly as possible. Notice what happens when you try to get smaller with the movement. For me the ideal cycle is much bigger than the reset on my pistol. Glad there's a forum for this kind of geek out!