Does USPSA need a classification system for multi-gun?

[M ammo]

My observation and thoughts from years of trying to catch the top shooters

I never cared about the classification system, it just encouraged sandbagging or grandbagging and skewed prize tables

Classification system for 3 gun adds no shooter value to the sport, only expense and trouble for the hard working people putting it on.

Outlaw matches run smoother and are far more popular than USPSA 3 gun events

No governing body is needed, each major 3 gun has its own flavor and theme and I like it that way

3 gunners vote with thier wallets and attend the matches they favor

More local matches will start due to increased interest, Top Shot, 3 Gun Nation, they don't need USPSA rules or dues to be successful

If we make a division and classification for everyone we can reach a fully entitlement based sport and everyone can feel good about themselves and take home a little ribbon, political correctness makes me sick and that isn't 3 Gun

Well said,,

Our Local match,,,, LOCAL!! has a bunch of Equipment divisions,,,Not shooter Skill level divisions this is so whoever shows up can shoot what they brought ""BRUNG"",, if you show up with a mini 14, and double barrel shotgun and a revolver (and we have had people show up with such guns) you can still play!

The people that keep at it, seem to end up with an AR, a Semi shotgun and a High Cap pistol.

But we want people to come out and play!

[DocMedic]

My observation and thoughts from years of trying to catch the top shooters

I never cared about the classification system, it just encouraged sandbagging or grandbagging and skewed prize tables

Classification system for 3 gun adds no shooter value to the sport, only expense and trouble for the hard working people putting it on.

Outlaw matches run smoother and are far more popular than USPSA 3 gun events

No governing body is needed, each major 3 gun has its own flavor and theme and I like it that way

3 gunners vote with thier wallets and attend the matches they favor

More local matches will start due to increased interest, Top Shot, 3 Gun Nation, they don't need USPSA rules or dues to be successful

If we make a division and classification for everyone we can reach a fully entitlement based sport and everyone can feel good about themselves and take home a little ribbon, political correctness makes me sick and that isn't 3 Gun

+1 Couldn't have said it any better. I like how RM3G has the 3gun pin if you finish in the top 25% of your division, I'll be striding to improve myself to get one next year. And by doing so it doesn't hurt it will put me higher on the list for the loot table

[M ammo]

My observation and thoughts from years of trying to catch the top shooters

I never cared about the classification system, it just encouraged sandbagging or grandbagging and skewed prize tables

Classification system for 3 gun adds no shooter value to the sport, only expense and trouble for the hard working people putting it on.

Outlaw matches run smoother and are far more popular than USPSA 3 gun events

No governing body is needed, each major 3 gun has its own flavor and theme and I like it that way

3 gunners vote with thier wallets and attend the matches they favor

More local matches will start due to increased interest, Top Shot, 3 Gun Nation, they don't need USPSA rules or dues to be successful

If we make a division and classification for everyone we can reach a fully entitlement based sport and everyone can feel good about themselves and take home a little ribbon, political correctness makes me sick and that isn't 3 Gun

+1 Couldn't have said it any better. I like how RM3G has the 3gun pin if you finish in the top 25% of your division, I'll be striding to improve myself to get one next year. And by doing so it doesn't hurt it will put me higher on the list for the loot table

The ''"3 gunners vote with thier wallets and attend the matches they favor"""

That one hit the nail on the head!

[Stlhead]

I think it would be awesome to include at least one if not more stages into every match that no one really wants to shoot. The extra fees to record the classifier scores would be a welcome plus as well. I think that paying more for a match that includes stages I don't want to shoot, that is harder for the match director to put on, would indeed improve my 3 gun experience.

Now without the sarcasm. A classification system would not add anything to my 3 gun experience. Classifiers would be a snooze fest and generally a waste of ammo compared to a well made 3 gun stage. The added expense and complexity of matches would be unwarranted. I could care less if golfers get a handicap. I like to play 3 gun, not golf. I don't need a card to make me feel good, if I feel bad it's my own problem and no card will really make me feel better anyway. I would rather see a $5 fee per entry of every match go to fund a national junior shooters event or some such thing. Or possibly be used to buy beer for after the match. I suck, everyone that shoots with me knows that I suck, I know that I suck. I don't need another card telling me that I suck, I can see on the overall combined results exactly where I fit into the big picture. No classification system required.

[Bryan 45]

Mmmmmm, beer.....

I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something in the big picture. Sometimes I can be narrow minded.

It appears this is not one of those times.

I've never understood the golf handicap either. I can suck, but as long as I suck within X strokes of the best, than I still win????

And I'll go out on a limb here, but if a certain percentage of the shooting population would only shoot 3 gun if there was a classifier system and it rewarded them for being the best of a mediocre sample- we don't need them.

[JeffWard]

* My humble opinion *

I like shooting heads up. If I am the 55th best shooter out of 100, I should be the 55th to the prize table. If you notice, there isn't any sandbagging, or accusations of sandbagging, in 3 gun.

Actual place at a match seems to be a very fair and accurate form of classification...

+100

[ken hebert]

3 Gunners will be classified once a year at the RM3G competition.

Pretty sure RM3G will never be a USPSA match.

Lee

The RM3G classifier is worth 100x more to me than a USPSA one ever will. Furthermore I support the 5 year JP MG expert pin/GM status. (I'm 2 years in now... and have no plans to not extend)

[ac4wordplay]

I'm not sure how I feel about a USPSA MG classification system, but I can imagine a situation where I might find a useful aspect to it.

Some suspension of disbelief may be required here, but please bear with me... If I were a participant who never made it to anything more than local, level 1 USPSA pistol matches, and if the classification system (now in use) didn't exist, then I wouldn't have anything more than my local frame of reference. Is my location/match well stocked with the most skilled/proficient competitors, the least skilled/proficient competitors, or somewhere in between? Being able to evaluate my performance (through the current classification system) relative to the best of a national pool (rather than only the people that showed at the local level 1 match, without the classification system) is desirable to me.

For A MG classification system to be employed, it seems that each individual firearm (and division) would need to be classified too, and that's where I find the use. I don't get to shoot MG against top-tier MG competitors, and I'd be interested in knowing how well/poorly I compare in a given firearm/division relative to the nation's best (via classifiers). I think that some may find value there (not the guys who make all the major matches and already know how they stack up against the nation's most skilled Daniel Horner ). How much is it worth? Alone, probably not enough to attempt implementation of a classification system.

best,

ac

[Stlhead]

I'm not sure how I feel about a USPSA MG classification system, but I can imagine a situation where I might find a useful aspect to it.

Some suspension of disbelief may be required here, but please bear with me... If I were a participant who never made it to anything more than local, level 1 USPSA pistol matches, and if the classification system (now in use) didn't exist, then I wouldn't have anything more than my local frame of reference. Is my location/match well stocked with the most skilled/proficient competitors, the least skilled/proficient competitors, or somewhere in between? Being able to evaluate my performance (through the current classification system) relative to the best of a national pool (rather than only the people that showed at the local level 1 match, without the classification system) is desirable to me.

For A MG classification system to be employed, it seems that each individual firearm (and division) would need to be classified too, and that's where I find the use. I don't get to shoot MG against top-tier MG competitors, and I'd be interested in knowing how well/poorly I compare in a given firearm/division relative to the nation's best (via classifiers). I think that some may find value there (not the guys who make all the major matches and already know how they stack up against the nation's most skilled Daniel Horner ). How much is it worth? Alone, probably not enough to attempt implementation of a classification system.

best,

ac

So if I understand your thinking on this you would like us all to get classified so that you can find out approximately how well you would stack up against people that you are not willing to put the effort required to directly compete with? If the classification system was that good then why would any of us go to the trouble of going to matches. The guys with the highest classifier scores could just get the prizes mailed to them at home. I think that you are missing the point. If you want to find out how you stack up then go to some bigger matches and find out. I would agree that this reason alone would not be enough to merit a classification system.

[smokshwn]

Catering to the crowd who needs a meaningless card that says "M" "A" "GM" in order to polish their egos is a certain way to kill the sport. This sport is about the purity of competition with ones self. Constantly changing to accommodate those who do not want to do the work to improve, but instead just want easy recognition will never be to the way to make it "better".

As it is the pistol classification is not accurate....as an A class shooter I routinely shoot better scores than a number of Masters and GMs. Until the pistol classification can be fixed why would anyone consider adding more guns and stages.

[Jesse Tischauser]

* My humble opinion *

I like shooting heads up. If I am the 55th best shooter out of 100, I should be the 55th to the prize table. If you notice, there isn't any sandbagging, or accusations of sandbagging, in 3 gun.

Actual place at a match seems to be a very fair and accurate form of classification...

Wow this is an exciting thread to say the least.

I started shooting USPSA pistol in March 2009 and 3 gun in August 2009 so I consider myself a relative newcomer to the sport. I have won several guns in that short time span in USPSA pistol by winning my division and I have one some great prizes and a pistol in outlaw 3 gun. Thanks again to all the great sponsors this sport has!

By some peoples standard, I am surely to have been considered a sandbagger. However, I don't consider myself to be one. I try to shoot a GM score on every classifer I shoot in USPSA. I have simply practiced a lot in my first 18 months of competing and I got better faster than my calssification did. I have done everything within the rules of the game and nothing that anyone else didn't have the same opportunity to achieve with enough practice. The fact that I have won great prizes of substantial value as a new shooter has helped me purchase more guns, gear, and ammo. It has also inspired me to get even better to win the next division. With that said, it still seems weird or even unfair every time I have won a pistol by shooting worse than several much better shooters.

I dislike shoooting the classifiers every match. I want to run and gun every stage like we do in 3 gun. But I would be in favor of a calssification system in 3 gun if for nothing else then for the new shooters. I know I can't beat the good guys but I do enjoy striving to win my division as I progress to the point that I can complete with the best of the best.

Let's face it winning is fun no matter what division or class you're in. If we all wanted to win the HOA we would all shoot Open wouldn't we?

So if your goal is to attract more sponsors and more money (which it should be) to our sport you have got to attract more shooters. Classifications will attract new shooters IMHO.

[dcloudy777]

If you want to do a Multi-gun classification system (I'm not sure it needs one, but I've given it some thought nonetheless)... here's my humble suggestion.

Select 10 (or more?) "Major Matches" i.e. RM3G, FB3G, SSM3G, etc. Criteria for selection should be 100+ shooters, 200+ total rounds, 8+ stages, however it would need to be tweaked. The only rules requirements should be that it is a true multi-gun match (all three guns are used with at least 3 multi-gun stages), that a standardized set of divisions be recognized (equipment rules for each division to still be determined by individual matches, keeping the outlaw flavor), and that while whatever scoring system is used, scores be calculated as a percentage of the top shooter in each division (pretty sure everybody does this anyway).

Now, each shooter of a "major" will have a percentage score at the end of a match. When the shooter accumulates 4 scores (or 5 or 7, we can work out the details later), the shooter's scores are averaged and a classification can be assigned.

100% - 90% = M

90% - 80% = A

80% - 70% = B

and so forth. Of course, as the shooter gets more "major" scores the average (thus classification) will go up (hopefully). It's kind of like the USPSA classifier system, except using only "real-world" match results. Think of each of the major matches as a "one-time" classifier.

Now, Individual matches can choose to recognize classes if they see fit, I don't think it's really necessary, and I certainly don't think prize table distributions should be class-based. It would be bragging rights, trying to get the "M" status (or "B" status for chumps like myself), and even buddies competing among themselves for the highest average they can get. Actually, as I think about this while typing, this system would offer a few advantages:

I see it as a way to very, very loosely "confederate" the sport, while not imposing on individual MDs that don't need to be imposed on, since they're already running damn successful matches. The success of these incredible matches lies in great part to each match's individual identity. That being said, there is very much a "3-gun community", and I think an all-inclusive classification/ranking system might foster that sense of community even more.

It encourages the new and/or casual multigunner to go out and shoot the "majors". You want to get classified? You don't have to join any organization, just go out and shoot X number of big matches. You can only travel to 1 or 2 a year? No sweat, you can still get your "score" and get classified, it's just going to take longer.

It can encourage smaller matches to grow, creating more opportunities for the "big match" experience. Make the requirements for being a "classifier match" big, but attainable. If an MD is running a 75-shooter, 6-stage match, and he finds out that by adding a few more stages and letting in a few more shooters he can become a "Classifier", I would think he would take advantage of this. It should make the match more marketable to both shooters and sponsors.

DanO

[Mike P]

That idea make the most sense for instituting something that is not needed that I've seen so far.

Thing is though, once folks are "classified" somebody will have to maintain the useless databse and I don't expect it'll be free.

[Charles Bond]

DanO:

I actually like your suggestion for a means to do the classifications if we needed them for the current crop of shooters. But what I am trying to do is create a means by which we can bring more people into the sport locally which would raise interest at the smaller clubs. Trying to capture these folks is the goal and I would not want to tell them they could only be classified by attending a major match where there is a waiting list and likely far from home.

And I understand the idea of getting smaller matches to grow and that is part of what this needs to accomplish. Presently there are not a lot of ranges that can handle a MG match since most seem to have only a single range that is 100 yards or more, if that. Growing the demand from shooters not presently in the sport will hopefully change that and as the demand increases there is an economoic reason for these smaller ranges to expand.

[bgary]

Offering "classification" won't bring people into the sport. Putting on matches people want to shoot, will.

[MarkCO]

Offering "classification" won't bring people into the sport. Putting on matches people want to shoot, will.

I truly love common sense! Well said jakers!

[bigbrowndog]

I know this 3" square peg will fit into this 3" round hole, it has too they're the same frickin' size!!??!$@%^#%&*

trapr

[GentlemanJim]

Yep...just the facts

What we have now works...its not perfect, but what is?

I hope USPSA puts its efforts into good multigun stage design, ROs and running the best matches they can

Jim

[Jesse Tischauser]

Offering "classification" won't bring people into the sport. Putting on matches people want to shoot, will.

Good point! It doesn't bring them in it just gives them a goal once they start but aren't ready to spend $1000-2000 to go the majors to try to win prizes.

3 gun nation and/or another organization like IDPA that holds local matches gets them in.

Edited August 26, 2010 by jtischauser

[Charles Bond]

Offering "classification" won't bring people into the sport. Putting on matches people want to shoot, will.

And that is because that 3 gun shooters are oh so different from those who shoot sporting clays or high power or even USPSA or IDPA pistol?

The idea of putting on matches people want to shoot is a good one for those already shooting 3 gun. But we are talking about local matches. We are talking about what a group of folks at a small range can throw together and giving someone a classification they can compare against the rest of the shooters nationally gives little places to shoot a larger flavor.

I am amazed that the shooters on this forum seem to be so afraid of classifications in rifle and shotgun because that is all we are talking about. The bottom line is that if we do not hold shotgun matches at local clubs and rifle matches at local clubs, we are not going to prime the pump for 3 gun and organized growth of USPSA.

And at the end of the day, some of you may not like USPSA and I appreciate that. But it is the best competition shooting organization for action shooting and the best by far.

[ken hebert]

Lets get Denise to chime in and see how many new (first timers) shooters entered RM3G. Where there is no classification system. I know there are some, I hear it discussed every year either there or here on the forum.

How is it soo hard for you to understand that the matches with no classification system are thriving and the one with a classification system is, uh, shall we say "not enjoying the same amount of participation".

Classification doesn't equal participation. Quality does. Now, take that back to a BOD meeting and "Prepare For Glory".

[Bryan 45]

I love USPSA. It is a great organization for supporting handgun shooting. But the practices that have USPSA the dominate body of pistol competition don't all adapt to multigun. Too many rules, regulations, requirements. Anyone keep track of how many additional pages the USPSA rule book gains every revision?

I still can't understand how classifications are going to bring new shooters into the sport. There are a ton of local pistol shooters around here that are not members of USPSA because they don't care about classifications (and the dues associated). If they have no intention of ever shooting a major match, what does a classification give them? Warm fuzzy feelings?

I'm against classifications because it's just more crap to deal with. Let's just shoot.

[bigbrowndog]

"I am amazed that the shooters on this forum seem to be so afraid of classifications in rifle and shotgun because that is all we are talking about. The bottom line is that if we do not hold shotgun matches at local clubs and rifle matches at local clubs, we are not going to prime the pump for 3 gun and organized growth of USPSA."

I'm amazed that from what I've read that you still think its the right thing to do, even though the vast majority here seems to be against it!!!

Holding local shotgun and rifle matches does not require a classification system, it only requires someone to hold a match. Organized growth??? how about just growth!!! a nonclassified association seems to be "growing" by leaps and bounds, and yet you still feel that a classification is what USPSA needs for GROWTH!!! Jakers said it best and first!! put on good matches and people will show up, and not because of a classification system but because they want to use the guns they have. If they enjoy themselves and have fun but then the "ugly reality" that there is no classification system hits them, do you really think they are going to stop coming??????????????? get real!!!! on the ride home the lack of a classification system isn't even going to make the conversation.

Trapr

Edited August 27, 2010 by bigbrowndog

[Benelli Chick]

I'm chiming!

Every year at JP RM3G, we get a number of brand new, first big 3-Gun match, less than half a dozen local matches, shooters.

The Casanova boys had shot like 2 local matches before ROing 2006 RM3G. The Lamberts first real 3-Gun match was Johnson 3-Gun and then RM3G. Luke Morris, 2nd big match ever and he's 13!!!! (I think he shot LaRue for his first big one!)

Our last local match at Aurora had over half first time 3-Gun shooters!! They had a blast and will be back and they rated themselves against our shooters, but mostly against themselves. One of the guys who showed up was very nervous. He told me, that he talked to himself for the entire 45 minute drive home about what he needed to practice, what equipment would help etc, and then talked to his wife for an hour when he got home about how much fun he had! THAT'S what brings in new shooters.

Welcoming matches that say, "just come" Try it! You'll like it! You talk to them, you share ideas with them. You let them play!!! He knew, without any classification, what he needed to work on and that if he wanted to be better, he needed to practice.

I understand that Sporting Clays has Classification, but..."Hmmm, what kind of thing do I want to shoot??? Oh that one ranks me against others...I don't think it looks like much fun, but they'll classify me against people across the nation! I think I'll shoot that!" Come on!!! People shoot sporting Clays because it's fun!!! They'd still shoot it if no one told them how they ranked. I bet with a possible score of 100 per round, they can figure out how good they are without any outside help!!!

I am dazed and confused about anyone who thinks that a classification system is more important for participation than good stages, fun people who are welcoming, and a well run match.

If you want to grow the sport...throw a match! Advertise at Sportsman's Warehouse. Give clinics to show people the fun guns and show them videos of the fun shooting. Invite people to watch. Let them shoot just one stage. Once they get a taste, they'll come back! That's what we, the Johnsons do!! And we've got newbies all the time!!!

There's my chime! Now back to your regularly schedulled bickering!

Editted to add: It seems to me that classifications are just so everybody can win something. First supersenior who beats seniors on cloudy days with short pants! (The senior is wearing short pants, not the days) Classifications do two things: allow more people to be the best of some subdivision and collect funds for some organization who wants to oversee that sport! IT doesn't make people want shoot! Fun does!

Edited August 27, 2010 by Benelli Chick

[GentlemanJim]

Just getting local USPSA clubs to hold multigun matches would be kinda good...most dont

Ours wont even entertain the prospect

Nobody is skeered of classifications, I would participate if it came to pass.

It seems most clubs operate in pistol bays, and pistol ranges...many not friendly to rifle or shotgun

I seriously want USPSA multigun to be successful, and grow.. Im on board to help in any way I can!

Its plain to see The USPSA directors are honestly trying very hard to make things bigger and better for all of us.

And most of us know certain USPSA rules have to stay...they are in the foundation of USPSA.. no total union required

I kinda wish for some kind of parlay between all the big dogs...get some comprimise on all sides

Grow the sport...shoot more, get to see friends more often

Multigun nats have been better each year..Im going to keep coming back reguardless of issues that may be imperfect

And I think us rank and file people are more responsible for bringing in new shooters than the organizations

JMHO...Jim

Edit to add ...The Johnsons did make it FUN we were hooked at the very first match

Thanks D and JJ

Edited August 27, 2010 by GentlemanJim