Legal or Not?

[JThompson]

Here's a target presentation I ran into recently.... Those that saw it and know the outcome please hold your comments until the others have had a go at it.

The prop in front of the poppers is declared to be softcover. It's Coreplast and you can not see through it. Legal or not legal and why? Please submit any thoughts with rules to back them.

Edited August 13, 2010 by JThompson

[open17]

Looks like a portion of the affected targets is visible under the coreplast. Legal.

Maybe not a good idea--after a few shooters the holes in the coreplast will provide

a aiming point.

4.1.4.2 Cover provided merely to obscure targets is considered soft

cover. Shots which have passed through soft cover and which

strike a scoring target will score. Shots that have passed through

soft cover before hitting a no-shoot will be penalized. All scoring

zones on targets hidden by soft cover must be left wholly

intact. Targets obscured by soft cover must either be visible

through the soft cover or a portion of the affected target(s) must

be visible from around or over the soft cover.

[Gary Stevens]

Not legal, 4.3.1.5

[JThompson]

Not legal, 4.3.1.5

Please explain Gary....

JT

[CocoBolo]

Not legal, 4.3.1.5

I must have a different rule book:

4.3.1.5 Scoring metal targets must be shot and fall or overturn to score.

Scoring Poppers which fail to fall when hit, are subject to the

provisions of Appendix C1, 6 & 7. Scoring metal targets which

a Range Officer deems have fallen or overturned due to a shot

on the supporting apparatus or prematurely fallen or moved for

any reason will be treated as range equipment failure. (See Rule

4.6.1).

[sperman]

Not legal, 4.3.1.5

Just a guess. If the RO can't see the calibration zone, he can't calibrate the popper in the case of a popper that doesn't fall?

[SA Friday]

Looks like a portion of the affected targets is visible under the coreplast. Legal.

Maybe not a good idea--after a few shooters the holes in the coreplast will provide

a aiming point.

4.1.4.2 Cover provided merely to obscure targets is considered soft

cover. Shots which have passed through soft cover and which

strike a scoring target will score. Shots that have passed through

soft cover before hitting a no-shoot will be penalized. All scoring

zones on targets hidden by soft cover must be left wholly

intact. Targets obscured by soft cover must either be visible

through the soft cover or a portion of the affected target(s) must

be visible from around or over the soft cover.

Hmmm, according to what you have posted here, the targets are NOT legal. I bolded what seems relevant in making the presentation illegal.

[Corey]

In section had a stage with 4 poppers behind softcover, but the cover was on the bottom not the top. Im assuming there is a "legal" difference in what part of the target is actually covered...

[sperman]

Here is the complete 4.3.1.5 from the 2010 rulebook. The bold is mine.

4.3.1.5 Scoring metal targets must be shot and fall or overturn to score. Scoring poppers which fail to fall when hit are subject to the provisions of Appendix C1, 6 & 7. Scoring metal targets which a Range Officer deems to have fallen or overturned due to a shot on the supporting apparatus or prematurely fallen or moved for any reason will be treated as range equipment failure. (See Rule 4.6.1). All Poppers shall follow the guidelines below:

1. That a minimum of 50% of the calibration zone be available at some point in the COF.

2. That the calibration will be done from a point on the COF where the calibration zone is available, closest to where the contested shot was fired.

[ChuckS]

Not legal, 4.3.1.5

Please explain Gary....

JT

You want someone to explain Gary?

I guess the question is does "under" = "around"?

[Schutzenmeister]

I'm not certain what I'm looking at in the picture ... If the "stuff" showing below the coreplast is the targets, then OK: Legal. However, if all it is are the sticks, then NO: Not legal. (4.1.4.2) Sticks are NOT targets. (Can't remember just where that is at the moment, but the book does state that sticks are neither hard nor soft cover for the purpose of scoring ... Hence, I would also maintain they are not targets within the meaning of 4.1.4.2.)

I would also agree with Open17 ... Coreplast is not a good choice for such a presentation for exactly the reasons stated. Suggest using several layers of black landscaping fabric. The holes do not show very much, and, when they do, you simply add another layer over it.

My $0.02 ...

[JThompson]

Remember, it IS softcover..... just say'n. SO technically, the entire calibration zone is available to the shooter.

JT

Edited August 13, 2010 by JThompson

[sperman]

Available doesn't necessarily mean visible, does it.

[sfchorn]

I'm going to apply a VERY strict interpretation of the rules here.

4.1.4.2 Cover provided merely to obscure targets is considered soft cover. Shots which have passed through soft cover and which strike a scoring target will score. Shots that have passed through soft cover before hitting a no-shoot will be penalized. All scoring zones on targets hidden by soft cover must be left wholly intact. Targets obscured by soft cover must either be visible through the soft cover or a portion of the affected target(s) must be visible from around or over the soft cover.

Portions of the targets were visible from under the soft cover. Not around or over.

From a practical standpoint, how do you consistently apply the calibration rule? It would be sheer luck if calibration shots were not strung vertically up and down the popper.

[JThompson]

Available doesn't necessarily mean visible, does it.

I guess a lot depends on the definition of "obscure." In reference to soft cover does it mean that you can still see the target? We know that when used in reference to "appearing targets" it means not visible right? An appearing target can not be visible, as we discussed recently. So what exactly does "obscure" mean in reference to the rules... it would seem that it changes depending on where it's used.....

JT

Edited August 13, 2010 by JThompson

[Corey]

seems like the bolded rule quote above about 50% of the calibration zone is what we need to look at. we cant see any of it, therefore, illegal target array.

[JThompson]

seems like the bolded rule quote above about 50% of the calibration zone is what we need to look at. we cant see any of it, therefore, illegal target array.

It is "available" though, actually 100% is available.

[Schutzenmeister]

Sorry ... In my first post I missed the original statement these were poppers ... I thought they were paper. (My bad.)

I would agree with Gary ... Not legal. 4.3.1.5.1 ... You cannot see through the coreplast, hence the calibration zone of the popper is not "available" for all intents and purposes. Yes, you CAN "shoot" it, but no, you cannot "see" it. (At all!) I also think 4.1.4.2 comes into play still.

Yes, I know there are one or two classifiers where all but a few inches of the top of the popper is covered by softcover, but that's the top. It's easier to judge the distance to the calibration zone from the top than it is from a small portion of the bottom.

In practice, I would not allow this presentation were I the RM ... If for no other reason than to simply be fair to the shooters! Were the soft cover something that "fuzzed" the view ... say snow fence or camo net, then I'd say OK ... The shooter can make an informed guess at the calibration zone. But coreplast? The shooter is now shooting blind ... I think that's less than optimal stage design.

JMHO ...

[xsniper]

Legal...I don't know ..but it sure looks like fun

[Corey]

its "available" to shoot by a competitor, but not available for calibration testing if necessary

[JThompson]

Good points... that brings me to something I wanted to work into this discussion.

How about this?

Edited August 13, 2010 by JThompson

[vluc]

When I took my CRO exam, one of my stages had this in it, although the upper part of the popper was visible, the remainder of the body was soft-covered.

The stage passed review.

[mhs]

I don't understand the issue with calibration. If the targets are painted between shooters it should be easy to tell where the calibration shot hits. The RM, taking his time, should be able to hit the calibration zone. There's always a chance that the popper will be hit high, but there's always a chance of that in any calibration. There are rules to deal with it.

[Corey]

Good points... that brings me to something I wanted to work into this discussion.

How about this?

[drift]I dont like that stage as a classifier. Unless there are notes not shown as to what the softcover is made from, dif ranges could set it up in different ways. Ive shot stages with soft cover as black tarps and also seen green snow fencing as soft cover. obviously the snow fencing was MUCH easier to get sights on target and get hits with.[/drift]

[JThompson]

Good points... that brings me to something I wanted to work into this discussion.

How about this?

[drift]I dont like that stage as a classifier. Unless there are notes not shown as to what the softcover is made from, dif ranges could set it up in different ways. Ive shot stages with soft cover as black tarps and also seen green snow fencing as soft cover. obviously the snow fencing was MUCH easier to get sights on target and get hits with.[/drift]

Indeed and this was a large portion of where I was hoping someone would get too on their own... nice job. In fact I have already sent that in to John for review. The best option, imo, is to specify snow fence.