June 2010 Handgun Rules

[mactiger]

Maybe they should have put it (and the changes made) out to all the SC's and MD's to proof before posting it on the web page?

No kidding. That's what I've been saying all year. Rules changes, regardless of how small, need to be vetted by both the membership in general in a forum such as this one (thanks to everyone here who does that with such thoroughness!), and also the Corps of Range Master Instructors who go out and teach RO seminars based on the rules every weekend.

The rules changes were discussed and worked over by the RMI corps prior to the March updates. Kimberly has stated that the version that made the web page was not accurate and should not have been posted. While it's regrettable that these kind of errors occur, rest assured that it was not done maliciously, but rather as an attempt by the BOD to inform the membership as quickly as possible about the updated version of the rule book. Nothing has changed, that I'm aware of, with the advent of the 2010 rule book--it merely incorporates the updates and rule changes that were produced in March.

I want to mention something else: rule changes are not made in a vacuum. I'd be willing to bet that almost 99.9% of changes to the rules come about as a direct result of member/competitor action and the subsequent discussion that follows. Running every rule change by the entire membership would be extremely counterproductive--it's hard enough to get the instructor corps and the board to agree on them, much less all 14-15,000 members. It's probably not going to happen, and is the reason why we have member-elected board members. They represent you, but they have to know what you want in order to do that. I'm not saying that the membership shouldn't be kept informed, but I don't think we really want (or need) a 15,000 member rules committee, either.

If I recall correctly, the last major iteration of the rulebook was posted for comment by the membership, and I anticipate any future changes to be given the same airing out. That's just my (admittedly faulty at times) memory of the circumstances, and my take on this current tempest in a teapot. Politicizing the discussion here won't help sort things out, either.

So, bottom line, take your blue rulebook, the 2008 version, and a copy of the revisions issued in March, and you should be good to go for any matches held the rest of this year, until a new rulebook is officially published. It may be a little clumsy, but it will work just fine.

Troy

[John Amidon]

There are no changes folks, the 2010 Handgun rules are actually the 2008 with all the changes included since 2008, well obviously not all, the only thing that got omitted during the process where the 4 definitions for Appendix A3 and the picture of the classic with the 25% how to for appendix B2.

Someone in a later post brought up 21.7 (New) regarding magazines in the Production division, this is not new any longer, back on July 1, 2009 when it was voted in, it was new, but that was a year ago and was in the document Production gun revisions effective July 1, 2009 which was included in the 2010 book, the only reason it is called 2010, is because that was the year it was all assembled.

Once the omissions are put in place, it will be re-posted and sent to the printer.

These omissions were not deliberately put into the March 2010, they were voted in, and they were not deliberately left out. Once notified action was taken by all necessary to correct this error.

Sorry for the confusion, but no black ops here, just a human error.

Regards,

John Amidon

[GrumpyOne]

Thanks John!

[wgnoyes]

These omissions were not deliberately put into the March 2010, they were voted in, ...

Well, yes, you all did deliberately put them into the 2010 update by the process of deliberating upon them and then voting them in, otherwise they never would have been there at all, right? That's what I meant. No black ops implied.

[wgnoyes]

I want to mention something else: rule changes are not made in a vacuum. I'd be willing to bet that almost 99.9% of changes to the rules come about as a direct result of member/competitor action and the subsequent discussion that follows. Running every rule change by the entire membership would be extremely counterproductive--it's hard enough to get the instructor corps and the board to agree on them, much less all 14-15,000 members. It's probably not going to happen, and is the reason why we have member-elected board members. They represent you, but they have to know what you want in order to do that. I'm not saying that the membership shouldn't be kept informed, but I don't think we really want (or need) a 15,000 member rules committee, either.

If I recall correctly, the last major iteration of the rulebook was posted for comment by the membership, and I anticipate any future changes to be given the same airing out. ...

I remember that, too. I just would like that policy to be extended for all significant updates to the rules, and I don't really see a downside to it. Post them for comment as has been done in the past, watch all the entertaining wrangling for a bit, and take it under advisement for what it's all worth when the Board votes the final version. And if we're already running updates by the Range Master Instructors, that's very good! And thanks for all you do!

[wgnoyes]

Okay, I guess we try this again.

I looked on uspsa.org/rules out of curiosity today for the Multigun Rules as updated Jul 12-18 and they're there.

And more importantly, the 2010 Handgun Rulebook is back on http://uspsa.org/rules. It has the hardcover-masking diagram for the Classic/Turtle target and definitions for dropped gun, draw, and handling all restored.

So, question for any area director whose watching and/or DNROI: do we start using it immediately? (I'm guessing yes, as the 2008 Blue Rulebook is gone.)

And will there be a printed one sent out later to everybody?

Thanks for all you do!

[Skydiver]

LOL! I think I found a typo in Appendix D4 Production Division, 22.2

22.2

Grips – any addition or removal of material which changes the factory profile or adds function such as beavertail or thumb rest.

As noted above (21.5) Revolver grips may be replaced with OEM or aftermarket grips of any shape, profile and surface texture. 22.4 is deemed to NOT APPLY to REVOLVER grips. Adding or removing material to change the profile of Revolver grips is ALLOWED.

I think that the 22.4 should say 22.2.

[mactiger]

That is a typo. Thanks for picking up on that. I don't think it's too late to fix in the printed copy, and yes, USPSA is shipping printed books soon.

Troy

[Chuck Anderson]

and yes, USPSA is shipping printed books soon.

Troy

Not unless something changed without telling the AD's. Since the book hasn't really changed, just incorporated the modifications over the last couple years, USPSA was not planning to print 18,000 copies to send to all the membership. The plan was to print enough to give to new members/new RO's and a few extras to make it through to the next planned rule book change, which should be coming up in a year or two. We had to print some now because USPSA is out and doesn't have any to use for RO classes and new members. There just isn't anything new in this book to justify the expense of sending out new copies to everyone.

[Nik Habicht]

and yes, USPSA is shipping printed books soon.

Troy

Not unless something changed without telling the AD's. Since the book hasn't really changed, just incorporated the modifications over the last couple years, USPSA was not planning to print 18,000 copies to send to all the membership. The plan was to print enough to give to new members/new RO's and a few extras to make it through to the next planned rule book change, which should be coming up in a year or two. We had to print some now because USPSA is out and doesn't have any to use for RO classes and new members. There just isn't anything new in this book to justify the expense of sending out new copies to everyone.

So the "official rulebook" is the 2008 edition with interpretations, right? Not the June 2010 USPSA rules......

If the official rulebook is the June 2010 USPSA rules -- y'all really ought to rethink that decision -- either by sending out new rulebooks to all members, or by reposting the 2008 version, all interpretations incorporated since, and making it crystal clear that we have two acceptable versions of the rulebook.....

[mactiger]

and yes, USPSA is shipping printed books soon.

Troy

Not unless something changed without telling the AD's. Since the book hasn't really changed, just incorporated the modifications over the last couple years, USPSA was not planning to print 18,000 copies to send to all the membership. The plan was to print enough to give to new members/new RO's and a few extras to make it through to the next planned rule book change, which should be coming up in a year or two. We had to print some now because USPSA is out and doesn't have any to use for RO classes and new members. There just isn't anything new in this book to justify the expense of sending out new copies to everyone.

One of the tangible things that members get for their membership, and clubs get for their activity fees, is a printed, official copy of the rulebook.

I'll echo Nik's sentiments: a rule book that can only be downloaded and printed is not an official document, because it can be changed. I'm not saying it will be, but modifications, omissions, etc., can and will happen. I know that I'd be skeptical of some range official that pulled a home-printed copy out of his bag to explain a rule to me. Why go through all the official motions of putting out a "2010 rulebook" if you aren't going to print and ship one to each member? And, which is going to be official? I happen to have a rulebook that was made for me that incorporates all the modifications, clarifications, and changes, but it's still blue, with a 2008 version on the cover. Is that one legal? I think the board needs to rethink this decision big time, because we'll see matches with competitors having one version, range officers another, and the RM and MD a third, all of which may have the same content but none of which will look the same.

If you are going to issue an official "2010 rulebook", everyone needs a copy. Don't do this on the cheap, do it right.

Troy

Edited August 1, 2010 by mactiger

[George Jones]

Chuck,

Trying to wade through this somewhat confusing situation....

Would I be correct if I were to describe this "new" rulebook not as "2010", but as "2008 as amended"?

If so, then I suggest that is what the dark blue cover should say.

[Sherwyn]

Chuck,

Trying to wade through this somewhat confusing situation....

Would I be correct if I were to describe this "new" rulebook not as "2010", but as "2008 as amended"?

You would be correct

Sherwyn

[George Jones]

Chuck,

Trying to wade through this somewhat confusing situation....

Would I be correct if I were to describe this "new" rulebook not as "2010", but as "2008 as amended"?

You would be correct

Sherwyn

Then would it not be better to use that on the cover?

[wgnoyes]

...

I'll echo Nik's sentiments: a rule book that can only be downloaded and printed is not an official document, because it can be changed. ...

Well, maybe not. Most people don't have the full "open division" version of Adobe Acrobat, so they can't modify the text within, and really when you try, the system doesn't handle margins and repagination at all well, and you can usually tell it's been screwed with.

IPSC turns on a feature in their pdf rulebooks that won't let you modify anything even if you have Acrobat. I just played with it here, wanting to make sure I could leave copy/paste turned on (else we would have an awful lot of unhappy match arbitration attorneys around here!) as well as text search. With update permissions set correctly, you can't use text touchup to modify text within the pdf rulebook. Text search still works, too, but you can also turn off extraction of whole pages, so that you can't piece together your own local copy of the rulebook.

And for that matter, Frank Thompson uses the Combined Rulebook in his official capacity as a Range Master (he did so at Area 6 this year). John Amidon said at the Mar 7-8, 2009 Board meeting in Dallas when the Combined Rulebook was introduced that it could be used for real matches and it exists only in pdf form.

So the precedent has already been set for using an electronically delivered rulebook in the conduct of a real match.

Edited August 2, 2010 by wgnoyes

[wgnoyes]

Not unless something changed without telling the AD's. Since the book hasn't really changed, just incorporated the modifications over the last couple years, ...

Are we sure about that? George Jones sent me a note after the first try at the 2010 rulebook on July 20th and pointed out something with 10.2.2, that I can't find in any of the rule update documents in 2009 or 2010.

The Jan 2008 rulebook reads as follows:

10.2.2 A competitor who fails to comply with a procedure specified in the

written stage briefing will incur one procedural penalty for each occurrence.

However, if a competitor has gained a significant advantage during

non-compliance, the competitor may be assessed one procedural

penalty for each shot fired, instead of a single penalty (e.g. firing multiple

shots contrary to the required position or stance).

The June 2010 rulebook reads this way (emphasis added to illustrate the difference):

10.2.2 A competitor who fails to comply with a procedure specified in the

written stage briefing will incur one procedural penalty for each occurrence.

However, if a competitor has gained a significant advantage during

non-compliance, the competitor may be assessed one procedural

penalty for each shot fired, instead of a single penalty (e.g. firing multiple

shots contrary to the required position or stance). Do not apply

two different penalties for the same offense, (e.g. not firing the required

rounds in a Virginia Count stage; competitor gets a miss and no procedural).

If that difference is in there as found by George Jones, what else is in there? There was no summary list of changes produced this time, as has been provided in the past.

[Chuck Anderson]

That's the only one. When I asked John about it, he said it wasn't a change, but a clarification from NROI. The rule should always have been applied in that manner.

[Ed K]

I'm heading out to work Area 3 in a couple of days. I guess that the 1st question for Tom Drazy will be, which rulebook, amended or not should we be using. It would suck to have to bring a 3 ring binder to my stage with changes that may or may not be official.

Sherwyn/Tom, can you provide all stages with official changes. Changes that will not make RO's/CRO's look foolish in case of arb.

[rgkeller]

So are new rulebooks being mailed and, if so, what is the title of the new Rulebook and when should we expect the Rulebook to arrive?

[Nik Habicht]

So the "official rulebook" is the 2008 edition with interpretations, right? Not the June 2010 USPSA rules......

So which version is the official rulebook? Or do we have two official versions?

[Tom D]

I'm heading out to work Area 3 in a couple of days. I guess that the 1st question for Tom Drazy will be, which rulebook, amended or not should we be using. It would suck to have to bring a 3 ring binder to my stage with changes that may or may not be official.

Sherwyn/Tom, can you provide all stages with official changes. Changes that will not make RO's/CRO's look foolish in case of arb.

Ed,

I have the 3 ring binder. I asked John that exact question. My rule book is just under an inch thick. I wont be printing 14 copies of it. You will just have to call me for any clarification. this is from John,

Tom,

Use the 2010 handgun as the only change was adding the part of the empty mag with the 2 ounces for Production, your suggestion. These rules are currently what everyone is using anyway, we just put them all together into one document instead of 4. They also include up to date, all NROI rulings including the one from 7/6/10. So everyone has at hand what is current.

Unfortunately, they are at the printers and not available, but the can be down loaded. If you have print outs of all the documents and the blue book, that is good to go you just need to remember the mag is now included in the weighing of the gun and 2 ounces over the number listed in production.

John

I hope this helps.

Tom

[sperman]

I went to the NROI site to look up the ruling from last month. They still have the 2008 rulebook posted, not the 2010.

[Ed K]

Tom;

Thanks for the clarification. Duane & I will see you tomorrow.

Ed

[wgnoyes]

I went to the NROI site to look up the ruling from last month. They still have the 2008 rulebook posted, not the 2010.

Yeah, they just haven't gotten a round tuit.

[wgnoyes]

I have the 3 ring binder. ... My rule book is just under an inch thick. I wont be printing 14 copies of it.

Well, like I said before, it's possible to print it on most laser printers in booklet format so that you end up with something the size and format of previous commercially printed rulebooks, as shown here. If I was going to do multiple copies, I'd print one and take it over to Kinko's or wherever and get copies made, but you'd really rather not have to do that, of course.