Para widebody in Single stack

[Duke Nukem]

I dont see anywhere in the rules where a Para widebody 1911 would be not legal in Singlstack.

I know what the title "Single Stack" means but I dont see in the rules where a widebody/double stack is excluded.

It says 1911. Para calls their widebody a 1911. So can you just load up to Division max and have at it?

[Pro2AInPA]

I dont see anywhere in the rules where a Para widebody 1911 would be not legal in Singlstack.

I know what the title "Single Stack" means but I dont see in the rules where a widebody/double stack is excluded.

It says 1911. Para calls their widebody a 1911. So can you just load up to Division max and have at it?

Not legal. I don't have the rulebook in front of me to quote the specific text from the appendix but only traditional single stack 1911s are legal in SS.

Edit:

Here it is:

Only 1911 production type pistols. Must be available to the general public and have their basis in the original 1911 service pistol as designed by John M. Browning. Pistols made from components that duplicate the factory originals are acceptable. Frames must be metal.

Using that rule as a basis, double stack 1911s (2011s) didn't exist when the 1911 was designed.

Also, I doubt your double stack Para weighs less than 43oz with an empty mag inserted.

Edited July 2, 2010 by Pro2AInPA

[Seth]

They have that division.... Its called L-10.

[Steve J]

It doesn't use a 1911 frame. It's not legal.

[Aristotle]

I dont see anywhere in the rules where a Para widebody 1911 would be not legal in Singlstack.

I know what the title "Single Stack" means but I dont see in the rules where a widebody/double stack is excluded.

It says 1911. Para calls their widebody a 1911. So can you just load up to Division max and have at it?

Not legal. I don't have the rulebook in front of me to quote the specific text from the appendix but only traditional single stack 1911s are legal in SS.

Edit:

Here it is:

Only 1911 production type pistols. Must be available to the general public and have their basis in the original 1911 service pistol as designed by John M. Browning. Pistols made from components that duplicate the factory originals are acceptable. Frames must be metal.

Using that rule as a basis, double stack 1911s (2011s) didn't exist when the 1911 was designed.

Also, I doubt your double stack Para weighs less than 43oz with an empty mag inserted.

Not all double stack 1911s are 2011's, example Springfield and Para. 2011's is the S_I design utilizing a modular steel frame with plastic grip. The Para is easy to make weight, all you have to do is tri top the slide, which is also SSTK legal.

But I do agree, the Para is not SSTK legal, I'll allow someone with more time than me to cite that exact text.

[Seth]

"Pistols made from components that duplicate the factory originals are acceptable."

That's the whole thing. The frame does not duplicate the factory original.

[Steve J]

These questions can be answered by doing a search or reading the rules. If it isn't a 1911 you can't use it. 1911's have John Browning's original frame, slide, and mechanics.

Edited July 2, 2010 by Steve J

[Duke Nukem]

The rule says "Only 1911 production type pistols(Para is a production pistol). Must be available to the general public and have their basis in the original 1911 service pistol as designed by John M. Browning.

The Para is called a 1911 not a 2011, anybody can see its BASED on 1911. Also its made of all metal unlike a S_I ,with the plastic grip anyway.

I just don't see anywhere in the rules where non single stacks are specifically disallowed.

[Seth]

The problem is that it ISN'T a 1911. Its a Para widebody. Glock could have called the G17 a 1911, but its still not.

If you look up the original patents on the 1911 they don't resemble the Para. The one of the key design features is a single column of ammo.

Its NOT a 1911 production type pistol.

Edited July 2, 2010 by Seth

[G-ManBart]

The rule says "Only 1911 production type pistols(Para is a production pistol). Must be available to the general public and have their basis in the original 1911 service pistol as designed by John M. Browning.

The Para is called a 1911 not a 2011, anybody can see its BASED on 1911. Also its made of all metal unlike a S_I ,with the plastic grip anyway.

I just don't see anywhere in the rules where non single stacks are specifically disallowed.

A para wide body doesn't "duplicate factory originals" and isn't based on a 1911. It's called Single Stack division...that right there is a clue that a double stack isn't going to be allowed, regardless of any other similarities. When in doubt, send NROI a note and they'll tell you the same thing....a Para wide body isn't allowed. R,

Edited July 2, 2010 by G-ManBart

[Pro2AInPA]

The rule says "Only 1911 production type pistols(Para is a production pistol). Must be available to the general public and have their basis in the original 1911 service pistol as designed by John M. Browning.

The Para is called a 1911 not a 2011, anybody can see its BASED on 1911. Also its made of all metal unlike a S_I ,with the plastic grip anyway.

I just don't see anywhere in the rules where non single stacks are specifically disallowed.

A para wide body doesn't "duplicate factory originals" and isn't based on a 1911. It's called Single Stack division...that right there is a clue that a double stack isn't going to be allowed, regardless of any other similarities. When in doubt, send NROI a note and they'll tell you the same thing....a Para wide body isn't allowed. R,

I think this is one of those examples of someone knowing the answer before posing the question for the sake of having something to argue about.

[Steve J]

Duke, Send in your application to the 1911 "single stack" Nationals, pay for your hotel room and transportation and show up with a Para wide body. You will happily compete in Open with two or three others, while 200 or so of your fellow shooters compete in Single Stack.

Now quit arguing. It's not a 1911.

[open17]

OK--I'll agree that a double stack pistol would seem to not fit in a division called

"SINGLE stack" But I WOULD argue that the pistol the 2011 is modeled on is indeed

the 1911.

SO---How about a Star model B? It's a single stack 9mm, and it sure as heck has it's

"basis" in JMB's 1911. It's pretty much a scaled down 9mm copy.

Legal in Single Stack?

[Pat Miles]

Okay, I'm back from the wood shed and would like to offer my apologies to Duke for the smart aleck comments I posted earlier.

Sorry,

Pat

[Duke Nukem]

I'm not trying to argue. Nowhere in the rules does it specifically spell out that you can only use a gun with a single column mag in single stack.

The rules simply do not spell out the assumed intention of the division.

A match director would have to show me where it said "no double stacks allowed" before putting me in open. Nobody can enforce a rule that doesn't exist.

Somebody should send this thread to whoever can make the definitive decision.

[Corey]

the debate here in what constitutes " basis of the 1911". clearly the 2011 style gun is based on the 1911. same features, safeties, etc. its the same gun with a wider frame and double stacked mags (for the most part).

That being said, the division is called SINGLE STACK. Its not called, "single action guns" or "1911-ish guns". If your gun has the ability to put ammo in the mag in a configuration other than in a row, one on top of each other, I.E. in a 'single stack'...you cant use it.

[JakeMartens]

I'm not trying to argue. Nowhere in the rules does it specifically spell out that you can only use a gun with a single column mag in single stack.

The rules simply do not spell out the assumed intention of the division.

A match director would have to show me where it said "no double stacks allowed" before putting me in open. Nobody can enforce a rule that doesn't exist.

Somebody should send this thread to whoever can make the definitive decision.

Come shoot my match with it, I will put you in Open and gladly take your $100 arbritation fee as well.

[Nik Habicht]

A match director would have to show me where it said "no double stacks allowed" before putting me in open. Nobody can enforce a rule that doesn't exist.

For starters -- the match director's not the guy making that decision. Someone in the RO-CRO-RM chain is. (That someone could also be the match director, but not necessarily.)

No range officer is required to show a competitor anything in the book, although it's always nice if an RO can explain the rules he's enforcing. The decision to move a competitor to open doesn't require the competitor's consent.

The competitor has the option of appealing the decision up the chain -- RO-CRO-RM-Arbitration Committee.....

I shoot Glocks -- almost exclusively and no longer own a 1911. I have no problem understanding what the rulebook language here refers to:

Special conditions:

— Only 1911 production type pistols. Must be available to the general public and have their basis in the original 1911 service pistol as designed by John M. Browning. Pistols made from components that duplicate the factory originals are acceptable. Frames must be metal.

And I really wish that they'd let me shoot my Glock single-stack in SingleStack Division....

[Nik Habicht]

Come shoot my match with it, I will put you in Open and gladly take your $100 arbritation fee as well.

You mean $85 arbitration fee, right?

11.4 Fees

11.4.1 Amount – As set by the Match Organizers, the appeal fee to enable an appellant to appeal to arbitration will be US$100.00 or the equivalent of the maximum individual match entry fee (whichever is lower). An appeal brought by the Range Master in respect of a match issue will not incur a fee.

11.4.2 Disbursement – If the Committee’s decision is to uphold the appeal, the fee paid will be returned. If the Committee’s decision is to deny the appeal, the appeal fee and the decision must be forwarded to the National Range Officers Institute (NROI).

[JakeMartens]

Come shoot my match with it, I will put you in Open and gladly take your $100 arbritation fee as well.

You mean $85 arbitration fee, right?

11.4 Fees

11.4.1 Amount – As set by the Match Organizers, the appeal fee to enable an appellant to appeal to arbitration will be US$100.00 or the equivalent of the maximum individual match entry fee (whichever is lower). An appeal brought by the Range Master in respect of a match issue will not incur a fee.

11.4.2 Disbursement – If the Committee’s decision is to uphold the appeal, the fee paid will be returned. If the Committee’s decision is to deny the appeal, the appeal fee and the decision must be forwarded to the National Range Officers Institute (NROI).

Yeah yeah yeah $85, but there is a $15 handling fee

[Gary Stevens]

I might have an insight on the creation of the division, so I'll offer this for what it is worth.

The short hand name of the division is "Single Stack", much like Bobby for Robert, or Dick for Richard. The name on the birth certificate is "1911 Single Stack Division".

We allowed some modern modifications to JMB's masterpiece, but when you check the DNA they are still JBM's 1911's.

And not to be argumentative, but if you still won't accept that, and want to know "why not", I'll tell you exactly what my late mother told me "because".

Edited July 2, 2010 by Gary Stevens

[Steve J]

Edited July 3, 2010 by Steve J

[G-ManBart]

I'm not trying to argue. Nowhere in the rules does it specifically spell out that you can only use a gun with a single column mag in single stack.

The rules simply do not spell out the assumed intention of the division.

A match director would have to show me where it said "no double stacks allowed" before putting me in open. Nobody can enforce a rule that doesn't exist.

Somebody should send this thread to whoever can make the definitive decision.

The definition is pretty clear in the rules. Suggesting that a wide body Para has it's basis in a 1911 is beyond a stretch. The top half of the gun has it's basis in the 1911, but not the bottom half. The rules say "as designed by John M. Browning" and they say "duplicate factory originals". A para wide body is absolutely in conflict with both of those specific statements as well as the fact that the division is names Single Stack for a reason.

You can argue, whine or complain all you want, but I'll bet you any amount of money you want that the official decision from NROI will be that you can't use a para wide body in SS division. I'll go so far as to say that I'd make that same wager at any Level II or higher match you would be moved to Open or, if it was before the start of the match, be allowed to move to Limited or L-10.

Like anyone else, you are more than welcome, nay encouraged, to send NROI an e-mail with that question to get an official ruling and remove all doubt. If you just want to vent because you don't agree, I'm not sure that will be well received here

[Steve J]

SO---How about a Star model B? It's a single stack 9mm, and it sure as heck has it's

"basis" in JMB's 1911. It's pretty much a scaled down 9mm copy.

Legal in Single Stack?

Nope. Stars are not a 1911. A 1911 starts with a slide and frame that JMB designed. I can take the slide and frame off of a M1911A1 from WWII and replicate any 1911 in production today with all the modern ergonomics. If you can't do that for any given pistol (Star, Para, SVI, STI) then it's not a 1911.

This one is from 1957 but it illustrates the point.

Edited July 3, 2010 by Steve J

[ima45dv8]

Ease up a little, folks. I've had to remove one post and offer two PMs reminding/warning people about our standards for conduct here. Please review the Forum Guidelines, conveniently posted at the top of every page for your viewing pleasure, if in doubt.

In short, "post respectfully, or don't post at all."