If Misses Cost More

[ong45]

This is a 2 part question , would you approve if misses were penalized 20 instead of 10 and do you think it would change the world order very much?

Who would it affect more? the B & C shooters or the M's and above?

James

[Yoda]

Right now on a few special occasions double points (and double Penalties) can be assigned to metal targets, depending on stage design. What would be your reasoning for extending double penalties to all targets (5 points to be gained, 20 points to be lost)?

It would surely widen the gap between M/GM shooters and B/C class shooters. M/GM have a very high point score and seldom score a Mike. This also implies that they won't be affected very much by your proposal. OTOH the B/C crowd of shooters have their fair part of Mikes, doubling the penalty will set them back even further from the winners. It would bring more emphasis on accuracy at the cost of speed in the lower classes. The M and GM already know their trade and perform accordingly.

I see no real advantage in doubling the Penalties, you might even discourage novice shooters who have a few bad runs. Of course they can improve if they persist and practice but who wants to practice if you have a few zero or close to zero results because of the HEAVY penalties?

Just my .02

[Neil Beverley]

Right now on a few special occasions double points (and double Penalties) can be assigned to metal targets, depending on stage design.

Within the IPSC rules this option is only permitted for Shotgun and Rifle but not for Handgun.

It is also permissable for frangible targets.

Max per match is restricted to no more than 10% of the total targets in the match.

[Yoda]

Thanks Neil for the additional info.

As the question was not Discipline specific I let it initially out and posted my remarks without going into Discipline details. I think that my remarks (or opinion ) are valid for both Handgun, Shotgun and Rifle. However, the fact that IPSC Handgun doesn't recognize the double value steel is useful information indeed.

[Ron Ankeny]

I see no real advantage in doubling the Penalties, you might even discourage novice shooters who have a few bad runs. Of course they can improve if they persist and practice but who wants to practice if you have a few zero or close to zero results because of the HEAVY penalties?

Amen to that.

[rhino]

I'm undecided on whether or not misses should cost more. I can see both sides.

I do think no-shoot hits should be doubled at least. I don't think you should be able to get through a stage with a no-shoot hit and still do well by going really fast. But that's another topic.

I do think that increasing penalties for misses (and no-shoots) would help bring accuracy back into balance with speed.

[PaulW]

No, No, No.....you get penalized enough. A miss is really 15 points, and a no-shot is 10 points, that double or more, thats enough. All it will do is make the gap between a master and b,c class that much wider. Why do that?

You can make couses of fire to test accurracy without making the pentalies rediculous.

[Loves2Shoot]

I think it would be hardest, and most frustrating on entry level shooters. I could care less as a M, because I worry more about A's than misses, but as a begining shooter it could be really frustrating, if you get more than a couple misses and you would pretty much zero a lot of stages. I think the scoring is fine the way it is and think people should use samller targets to make sure people can shoot strait instead of stiffer penalties. The way it is, you can afford to push the envelope of performace, and with a 25 point penalty per miss, it would be more like IDPA's scoring where speed isn't really that important.

[Vince Pinto]

James,

You asked a question but failed to give any arguments or rationale in favour of doubling penalties for misses. Having said that, I cannot think of a single reason why we'd want to change the status quo, but I'm listening, as usual. However there's no doubt in my mind that the people who would suffer the most from increasing penalties are novices.

As an anecdote, at every World Shoot I observe the action of everybody from the the "Super Squad" down to the "Soup Kitchen Squad", and here are the reactions I see:

(Super Squad guy looking totally devastated): "Shit, shit, shit I got a Delta on 1 of 16 targets".

(Soup Kitchen Squad guy looking rather pleased): "Yay, I only got 1 miss on 8 targets".

Vive le difference

[ong45]

During a conversation with a friend, he brought up this solution as a way to bring back "accuracy" to the game. He was of the opinion that if you shoot fast enough a miss here or there won't hurt you much ( i do all i can to encourage this attitude in my competitors )

I agree with most of you that all this will do is hurt the lower level shooters.

Every so often a local club sets up extremely nasty stages with no shoots behind US poppers and whacky hard cover / no shoot targets to "slow down them open guys" The resulting aftermath is predictable, the spread between the top guys and every one is double the usual amount and more people zero the stage.

Shooting accurately is a personal choice, not a course design (or rule) problem.

Jmes

[wide45]

Stage designers have been bringing the targets closer, dumping the hard cover, and packing in more easy targets.

Then some cry "we have to bring back accuracy, change the targets, change the scoring!".

I'd say, change the stage designs.

[Nik Habicht]

...Some cry "we have to bring back accuracy, change the targets, change the scoring!".

I'd say, change the stage designs.

I wholeheartedly agree! When I was getting started, every M and G level shooter I asked about hot to improve said the same thing: No Misses and No Deltas! Let the time be what it is....

[ErikW]

No I wouldn't approve. It would hurt the slower shooters much more than the faster shooters. It's a rare thing to see a B or C shooter shoot a miss-free match.

Those 15 points lost amount to 10% of a 30 round stage. A 20 point penalty would mean 25 lost, or 17% of the same stage. In the lower round count courses, it would be huge.

[Nolan]

Well, how about double the penalty for misses and no-shoots for Master/GM shooters and leave it alone for A and below?

[Merlin Orr]

No I wouldn't approve. It would hurt the slower shooters much more than the faster shooters. It's a rare thing to see a B or C shooter shoot a miss-free match.

Those 15 points lost amount to 10% of a 30 round stage. A 20 point penalty would mean 25 lost, or 17% of the same stage. In the lower round count courses, it would be huge.

Pretty plain when you do the math. (when Erik does the math)

Leave it alone - I hurt enough already.

[ErikW]

Right on, a class penalty multiplier...

D=1.0, C=1.2, B=1.5, A=1.7, M=2.0, G=2.5

That just might put an end to grandbagging. Good times!

[Nik Habicht]

Right on, a class penalty multiplier...

D=1.0, C=1.2, B=1.5, A=1.7, M=2.0, G=2.5

That just might put an end to grandbagging. Good times!

....and creates another reason to sandbag.....

[AikiDale]

Geez, Leave it alone. Sounds like another socialist plot to penalize the rich which will of course backfire........

[SmittyFL]

I think the balance between accuracy and speed is there. Three points on that statement:

1) It's relative. If you come from a different shooting background then yeah, the speed seems pretty extreme. If you've always shot IPSC or come from a steel background then it's nothing new.

2) As has been said, course design dictates the speed potential.

3) The speed is what makes this game fun. There are plenty of games available if you wanna shoot slow.

Changing the scoring isn't going to level the playing field between GM/M and C/D, I hope that's obvious to everybody. It's only going to result in a bigger gap and more zero'ed stages for the lower classes. As it stands now, you can very rarely afford a miss anyway, the penalty is pretty severe as it stands.

My 75 cents.

[JT Johnson]

What about make a mike worth -15 and eliminate the fail to shoot at penalty?

[SmittyFL]

That's not a bad idea JT but I still would rather leave it as is. I look at the FTE as something different. I look at that as a penalty to someone trying to game....or beat the stage. Who should be penalized more than just some guy or gal that through a miss by mistake.

[Ron Ankeny]

No matter what the system, it needs to be the same for eveyone. I ass/u/me the discussion about different penalties based on class is not serious.

Speed and accuracy is relative. In my experience, I would say the majority of IPSC shooters can't hit the side of a barn and the current trend in course design is only making matters worse. On the flip side, the IPSC crowd sure does put a lot of lead in the air in short order, lol.

[Flexmoney]

HardCover.

No-shoots

[Nik Habicht]

Targets at thirty yards.

Plates at 25 Yards.