Tips for MGM Double Spinners?

[boomfab]

What's a fast time for spinning one with a 9mm? I am able to spin one with 147gr bullets in about 18 seconds....trying to get a lot faster.

With 124gr bullets I run out of ammo in my 22rd mag before I spin the darn thing!

Anyone have specific tips on shooting one with a pistol?

[CraigS.]

Double tap it if you can and use heavy bullets 147.

[Religious Shooter]

My $.02...

I think a lot of beginners get greedy. With a relatively low-powered pistol round don't shoot at the target when it is at a point where it is close to turning over... but won't without X amount of momentum. At this point you should just let it come back down/up and engage it. You will eventually get a feel for were this point is.

If you take a look at one of Travis' runs at Ironman you can see he doesn't get "greedy" and let's it spin back before engaging it.

At 1:06 a nube would have shot the bottom. Same thing at 1:32. If they were engaged at that point it would have just stalled the target.

It's because of the angle of the plate. You want to shoot it when the plate is flush to you and not at an angle. If he had shot it at those points in the swing, the bullet would have deflected off the plate and not transferred its energy to the target.

Generally you want to engage the top target first. The top plate is usually more flush to you (if you are shooting it at a standing position) than the bottom plate. The bottom plate is more angled from you and will have more deflection.

You generally also want to engage the top plate first since the second shot/engagement will be at a moving plate. The bottom plate is bigger so you have a bigger target to shoot while it is moving.

Given that... I'm not sure in the stage above that the top plate should have been engaged first. In this case the bottom plate is actually flusher to you than the top plate because the bunker changes your relative elevation to the target.

Also with a shotgun, the bottom plate has more surface area for the pattern to work with. With a shotgun it may (or may not) be better to engage the bottom plate first.

If the spinner is part of a field course, consider reloading and starting with a full magazine before you engage the spinner.

In Travis' run... at the first bunker there are pistol paper targets and the spinner. He doesn't engage the paper then the spinner. He engages the spinner first (when his pistol is fully topped off) then the paper.

At 2:24 his pistol isn't topped off and he has to reload while engaging the spinner. He looses some of the momentum he generated with his initial shots. He should have reloaded before he engaged the spinner.

[Mbauer67]

This was a great question and a great answer, I have been interested in doing the ironman, but these targets seem pretty difficult. Glad I'm not the only one who thinks they are pretty tricky.

[TMC]

Last year I used a 40 with major PF ammo and that made it easier. A couple of seasoned Ironman competitors on our squad used 9's and struggled with a couple of them. I've seen the video of Travis demonstrating how to shoot one with a 9mm but it is easier when the timer is not running and you can get good hits. When the clock and your adrenaline are running your timing may not be perfect so every little bit helps. As long as the Ironman has those spinners I'll be shooting major. One thing we did as a squad, with the blessing of the RO's, was oil the spinners when we got to the stage. Who knows if it did anything but mentally it helped.

[goat68]

I've spun it with 115 gr 9mm on occasion. You do need to get hits to do it. The times i didn't spin the thing was when i missed the plates after they were moving. I usually gave up becasue i was getting low on ammo and hade more stage to clear before timing out. very expensive penalty at 60 sec for failure to spin.

[lvipscshooter]

We have been using the spinner as part of our handgun matches here in Las Vegas. We know it's not a legal USPSA target, but we are shooting Level I and are playing with ways to score it that could someday be used in a "sanctioned" pistol match. The main goal is to score it so it will benefit those that can, but not heavily penalize those that can't resulting in a stage that could potentially destroy the overall results of the match.

I think this is one of the funnest targets and most practical targets ever designed to shoot. We even tried man on man with two spinners , allowing you to stop your competitors from spinning if you dared BTW, if you try that one, make sure you bring a case of ammo to the line, you might need it LOL!!!

I sue it to practice transitions, setting up a IPSC A/C zone steel 10 yards to either side of the spinner. The routine is engage the spinner (top or bottom plate, no max on rounds), transition to one of the a/c for 1 shot, back to the spinner (obviously opposite what you started with again no max on rounds), then to the other a/c for 1 shot. Keep this up back and forth until it spins. The only rule is if you miss the spinner plate, you can't transistion again until you hit it, and you can't engage the opposite spinner plate until you hit the a/c. This has been a great excercise. My best doing this is 9.63 shooting an open gun with a big stick, no misses on the swinger and no reload.

[R-Bros_JLR]

Kevin, that's actually a great use of that target and I think I'm going to include that in my practice sessions! I agree with you that the spinner is an incredible target and very versatile. We have even used it for a precision rifle target at 300yds. It's really fun to have one shooter trying to spin it and another trying to stop it

[MarkCO]

We know it's not a legal USPSA target, but we are shooting Level I and are playing with ways to score it that could someday be used in a "sanctioned" pistol match.

I'll agree on pistol rules, but I'm not convinced that it is not legal for MG.

The relevant MG rule is:

MG 4.3.1

Approved metal targets for use in USPSA Multigun matches include any

metal target that provides an adequate method of determining hits or misses

other than by falling (self-indicating hits). Scoring metal targets by listening

for hits is not permitted. Self-indicating targets when used in a Rifle COF

may be engaged from multiple shooting locations as new targets. All types

of metal targets may be used as scoring targets or no-shoots. They must be

scored in accordance with the relevant Appendices.

[benos]

I'm not a fan of that spinning target. The target mechanism introduces to many variables, which will affect the shooters time/score, that cannot be controlled by the shooter.

[ThreadDrift]

Holy crap - what an intense stage - shooting hard core for 6 minutes!

[/td]

[MarkCO]

I'm not a fan of that spinning target. The target mechanism introduces to many variables, which will affect the shooters time/score, that cannot be controlled by the shooter.

Kind of agree, kind of not. For rifle/pistol, I agree, it is a differential target, even for the same shooter/gun, just trying it again.

However, I really like it for shotgun. I've tested it enough to ensure it is repeatable, probably more repeatable that a lot of the rifle targets we use. At distances from 10 to 25 yards with bird and buck, it is a reasonable target with no reset.

[dchang0]

I'd like to resurrect this thread with questions about ammo.

Right now, I am barely able to move the spinner at all with very weakly-loaded 115gr 9mm ammo (Russian stuff). From a still-start, one direct hit on the bottom plate moves it by about 2". That's pretty weak ammo.

So spinning the spinner takes an incredible amount of skill or luck or practice, none of which I seem to have or get on these particular targets. I can hit it fairly easily with carefully-aimed single shots but can't double or triple or quadruple tap it like some of my squadmates. The guys running .40 and .45 spin it easily in two to four well-timed shots. If I'm going to stick with hitting it once and waiting for the right timing for the next single hit, I'm going to need something that hits much harder.

The OP mentioned running 124gr and 147gr ammo. I'm wondering about the other possible options, such as 9mm +P, 9mm major (and its variants), 9mm NATO (124gr, slightly less than +P pressures).

The big thing for me is that I don't reload/hand-load, so I'm looking for stuff I can easily buy in bulk--perhaps at 500 rnds at a time.

Any tips on ammo-based solutions to the spinner problem? A big concern is POI-change between this and my usual weak ammo, of which I still have thousands of rounds.

---

Any suggestions involving more practice on these things won't work well for me--I just don't live close enough to the ranges that have one to practice on to make it worth the 1.5 to 2hr drive each way for each practice session. Hanging out after the match is over to practice on the spinner sort of works, until the guys come along for tear-down, LOL.

One good suggestion practice-wise was to be able to quadruple tap a stationary 8" target, but even that requires driving to one of these far ranges, because all of the nearby indoor ranges would kick me out if I "rapid fired" on a target. So that's why I'm asking about ammo-based solutions.

Edited January 13, 2012 by dchang0

[HS101]

Luckily, MGM is running a special on the spinner this month, so I have one on the way... There are not any local clubs that own one/ use one yet, but I will put mine out as an option for our local stage designers to add to our next 3 gun match...

I think you could take measurments, and "mock up" a practice target with paper plates and a stick.... dimensionally it would give yo an accurate target to practice on, even if it did not have the actual movement.

As for your ammo question, look into Atlanta Arms and Ammo. They supply ammo to quite a few "top" competitors. Then, once you get the rounds, just learn the POI difference... You could even take the step of getting a seperate mag, with a different clorod base pad, and load up just for the spinner...

[Robert King]

Just shoot any 147's your gun likes. Figuring POI between your load and the 147's is easy enough.

BTW: I don't think any handgun will spin the spinner in 2 shots. The fewest I have ever seen is 5, but I suppose 4 might be possible.

[dchang0]

Thanks for the tips, HS101--that paper plate idea is a good one. I had forgotten about the issue of transitioning between the upper and lower plates rapidly. I'll check out Atlanta Arms and Ammo and order a different-colored Arredondo baseplate. Forgot that I'll need some way of differentiating the mags, LOL.

Robert: You're right--I'd gotten the shotgun (buckshot) numbers mentally mixed in with pistol on the spinner too. Yes, I have seen a guy with full-power buckshot spin the spinner in two shots. As for pistol, I know that I have seen a guy running a single-stack .45 spin it in a mere three shots. We paid special attention because he had to do a tactical reload to make sure he had a full mag when running up to the target. Perhaps he had hot or heavy .45 loads, or maybe it was just dumb luck.

So I guess you guys are saying that 147gr is enough--it's not necessary to go with any extra-power loads...

[Religious Shooter]

For Tactical, my main pistol load is a 115 FMJ at 1249 fps (143.6 PF). I wanted some more pop for the spinners so I loaded some 147's to 1215 fps (178.6 PF).

Unfortunately the POI difference between the 115's and 147's was too much for me. The POI difference was very noticeable with both my Tactical and Open pistols.

I ended up just using my Open Pistol's 124 grain major loads. The POI difference was virtually nil with the 115 and 124 loadings with both of my pistols.

If you get the 147's don't be surprised if there is a noticeable POI difference with the 115 Russian loads. I'd suggest checking out hot 124/5 loads as well as the 147's.

The 124's loaded to major do a good job on the spinners. I don't think I could do better with .40 major loads.

[MarkCO]

Just shoot any 147's your gun likes. Figuring POI between your load and the 147's is easy enough.

BTW: I don't think any handgun will spin the spinner in 2 shots. The fewest I have ever seen is 5, but I suppose 4 might be possible.

Um, we had a .50AE out at a "Intro" type day at the range and the .50 AE spun it in two shots. Granted the transition was pretty rough. I was able to spin it in 4 rounds with my full power .45 ACP. I had 147s loaded at 130 PF and it took almost a whole mag (21 rounds) to spin it. 124+P factory spun it about the same at the .40 major (about 8 rounds). I spun it in one round with buckshot several times.

The target set up is an issue. If the bar is level, the axle clean and well greased and the collar to barrel contact is polsihed and smooth, 9mm minor will spin it in about 10 to 12 shots. However, there are times when this is not the case and there is no way 9 minor will ever spin it.

Transitions, splits and technique are HUGE with this target using a handgun. You can be off by just a fraction of a second on a double and end up killing the momentum. My theory is that if you can't split a double in under 0.15 (on one of the plates), you are better going to transitions and then you had better be able to transition in under 1s or you probably won't spin it in a match unless everything is perfect. In my limited experience, the best practice is to attempt doubles or tripples on the target just after it is closest to you and starting to move away, that gives the largest margin for error and the largest window for adding energy. For instance, if you try to "lift" the bottom target just as it is furtherest away, if you are off, you can kill the forward momentum and you would have been better transitioning to the upper target.

I double the bottom and then double the top. If all 4 hits land, then I go for a tripple on the bottom. With .40 major, and 9+P, this will spin it most times if I get the hits. With pistol, this has been the most consistent and fastest way for me to spin it.

[dchang0]

Thanks very much, guys, for the very detailed tips on ammo and technique--I WILL conquer this beast soon!

[Robert King]

Well, I never even considered a 50ae shooting a spinner. I can certainly see that in two shots.

When I moved to Idaho, I met the Double Spinner for the first time. Took me 9 shotgun shots to spin it and it took two magazines of .40 in my Glock 35. The next weekend, I purchased a Double Spinner on sale from MGM. That was last winter. This summer, I won the double spinner stage at the MGM Grand Nats. I can consistently spin it with 6 shots shooting .40 major and am able to do it in 5 shots a lot of the time, now. Tripple the bottom and double the top, then it goes over. Miss one of the tripple, still double the top and then one on the bottom and it goes over. I think my best with a glock 34 shooting minor with 124's, is 9 shots and it usually takes me 10 or 11.

With a shotgun, as long as buckshot is not banned, I always spin it in one shot. I shot a 3.5" magnum turkey load this summer, in Montana, and it spun the spinner 4 or 5 times with one shot. It was still spinning when I finished the stage, very fun. If buck is not allowed, it always takes me three shots with the shotgun.

Although I am far from an expert shooter and if multi-gun had classes, I would put myself in C, I do think I am well above average with the double spinner. It is a very unique target and I think the only real way to get better on it, is to practice shooting it. No amount of shooting paper plates or other things, will help you improve the timing of your shots, and timing is everything with the spinner.

[ranger]

Reading this thread makes me feel better. We had one of these spinners set up as a side match and I got embarrassed trying to spin it with cheap 115 FMJ Russian ammo. I hit it but barely moved it then went into the hit it faster mode which means I missed more, hit at wrong point of swing, etc.

[HS101]

Ok... Had my first trip out to the range with my spinner.... Awesome!!

My 130PF 124gr 9mm load was able to spin it in9 shots. My 40 and 45 loads (both in the 185pf range) were able to spin it in six.

I was going top first, but need to go and practice different strategies... Also, I was at 15-20 yards, and I need to practice different distances.

Next time out I will also try my shotgun to figure out what shells/chokes work best at which distances....

[dchang0]

It is a very unique target and I think the only real way to get better on it, is to practice shooting it. No amount of shooting paper plates or other things, will help you improve the timing of your shots, and timing is everything with the spinner.

Yeah, there truly is no substitute for simply getting in front of one of these and practicing on it for hours at a time, more than once a month, but for now, gas prices and access to a club's spinner prevent me from gaining enough experience on them. Paper plates will be the closest proxy.

--

I shot the spinner in a stage at X3 yesterday, and for the first time in ages actually spun it (17rds 115gr Winchester white box 9mm followed by about 5rds 115gr weak Russian 9mm). It took probably 70-80 seconds of double-tapping top and bottom targets at the correct times. I only missed once that I remember and am glad to say that I got the timing right, at least, but I would've gotten a better stage time had I simply taken one shot at the target and taken the 60 sec. penalty. One bad thing about using weak ammo is that the time between pendulum swings is longer (spinner is spinning slower) than with more powerful ammo, meaning I stood there for ages waiting for the right opportunities to shoot.

[DCS]

I'm not a fan of that spinning target. The target mechanism introduces to many variables, which will affect the shooters time/score, that cannot be controlled by the shooter.

Bumping this thread again. Curious what others think about spinners.

My son and I are in our 2nd year of practical shooting, 1st year of 3-gun. Our goals: develop practical skills and have some fun at the local level.

We shoot LTD; we’re pretty competitive on USPSA or 3-gun stages that require the shooter to neutralize targets with reasonable hits.

I like spinners for shot at nearer distances. Practically speaking, maybe they resemble "hinge-buster" targets or other possible realistic shotgun scenarios. Logistically, they're speedy because no reset is required. On a good day, we flip them in 3 shots, give or take. I've seen guys flip them with one hi-dram #6 on the bottom plate. Even if you completely goof it up after 4 shots, you're still holding a weapon with enough power and rounds to finish the target without reloading. IMO, there's nothing "un-practical" about a spinner used as a shot target.

I don't like spinners for pistol or rifle or slugs for two reasons:

1 - they require an impractical round count for completion while mirroring no practical application I can think of. IMO - they are a gamer target rather than a practical target. If you shoot 10 centerfire rounds and make 7 scoring hits on a single "special timing required" target and the target is still not neutralized, this is not a practical engagement. If you hit a 10" plate with a slug at any range and the target is not neutralized, this is not a practical engagement.

2 - the penalty for failure to spin is vastly higher than anything else a reasonable shooter might face. There's only one reason for this - to encourage the practical shooter to develop his gamer skills. If failure to spin cost 10 seconds rather than 60, I would definitely opt for shooting the top plate with one rifle or pistol bullet or one shotgun slug before going straight to the next target. Why penalize the practical shooter 60 seconds? The answer: gamer target.

My son and I just completed a 3-gun match that included 4 spinners: 90yd rifle, 60yd slug, 15yd shot, 15yd pistol. We both shot well enough at all targets except the rifle, pistol, and slug spinners. On those we went down in flames and it really showed on the scoresheet. Plus, it was frustrating. We’re pretty good shots, and it showed everywhere except the spinners because we have no experience with them and haven’t developed our spinner skills. It wasn't fun.

The obvious solution is to drive the 60mile round trip to the range a few times, get the spinners out, and devote time and ammunition to developing our gamer skills.

The only problem is, we don't want to. We're not interested in doing that. We're not in it for that side of the game.

I recognize and respect that not all shooters share this view. I'm just initiating a discussion on the nature of the growing repertoire of targets we see in the wide-open world of 3-Gun/Multi-gun.

I've never seen a Polish plate rack or a Helicopter, but I've heard of them. I'm sure there are other carnival-style challenging steel targets in the pipeline, because that seems to be the direction a lot of people want to go.

I’m curious what others might think. Do you make a distinction between practical and gaming-style targets or matches? Preference?

[DCS]

Yeah, there truly is no substitute for simply getting in front of one of these and practicing on it for hours at a time, more than once a month, but for now, gas prices and access to a club's spinner prevent me from gaining enough experience on them. Paper plates will be the closest proxy.

This is a reality for a lot of folks.

...but I would've gotten a better stage time had I simply taken one shot at the target and taken the 60 sec. penalty...

This applied to roughly 70% of the participants at our match, including my son and I. I can't believe I didn't recognize it mid-match. Our scoresheets have a 300 second penalty for "failure to perform the required challenge". Next chance I get, I'll ask our MD if one-shotting a rifle or pistol or slug spinner results in that penalty.

[dchang0]

I’m curious what others might think. Do you make a distinction between practical and gaming-style targets or matches? Preference?

As much as I hate the spinners, I was pleased to hear that our club (X3, Piru, CA) is hoping to get more and put more of them out in regular matches.

People who know me know that I dislike gaming--I try to stay as practical as possible, even keeping my gear as close to "what I'd carry when SHTF" as possible.

Still, I look forward to facing more spinners because there is definitely one practical skill they reward and develop: the ability to triple or quadruple or quintuple tap a small hit zone. After seeing enough of the better shooters do this repeatedly, it's become obvious that: a) it's a skill that can be developed by anyone willing to put in the practice, and that ability translates into better shooting on other targets. In other words, it's about getting better control over your gun and where it hits, whether it be a shotgun, rifle, or pistol. Or reworded yet again, the spinner trains you to narrow your rapid-fire "cone of fire."

All that said, I'd also like to submit that the spinners are actually not gamer devices for an entirely different reason: they aren't consistent enough to really be used for competition. Just yesterday, someone said to me that part of the challenge of making a competition is ensuring that everything in the stage works exactly the same for everyone--that targets fall over the same way, that moving targets are timed the same way, etc. Obviously, the spinner favors people using higher powered ammo AND no two spinner engagements are timed exactly alike, even with the exact same shooter, gun, and ammo. It's this variability that makes the spinner less gamer and more practical--who knows exactly when a bad guy is going to stick his head out from around a corner so you can Whac-a-Mole him?

I think this is really why people don't like spinners. They know they're on the clock, being measured competitively against their peers, and their particular spinner experience could be frustratingly uncooperative, even for someone who's developed the triple or quadruple tap skill. It's that pressure of knowing that as each second passes, you're slipping down the rankings that makes it un-fun.