STI 2011 40's

[Sullie]

I am considering buying an STI 2011 gun, probably the Eagle. A couple of questions: I have heard that they will only feed rounds that are loaded pretty long, is this true? Also, it seems that many USPSA shooters' guns don't slide lock after the last round is fired. Is this set up this way on purpose? If so, why? Is it a function of the gun itself or the magazine?

[FLG8R]

Hello Sullie and welcome to the forum!

i'm no expert, but maybe can answer some of the questions. I run a S_I pistol built by Benny Hill. It will run on everything I feed it, factory "short" ammo or OAL 1.18, which is slightly longer. I have heard that may load long for reliability, but many more "reload" long for shootability of the ammo. Easier to get a softer shooting load that way. As far as the slide lock, this is a component of both the mag and the gun. the slide stop internal edge is ground down, and the mag followers either are made with cut outs, or are ground down as well to avoid tripping the lever. Hope that helps...

david

[spanky]

I've always wondered why anyone would want their slide to not lock back...

[mike4045]

My limited guns do not lock back. If they do lock there is a problem. I have seen several that lock back with ammo still in the mag. That is my reason for locking back. I grind the slide stop down. My production and single stack guns lock back.

My guns shoot softer with long loaded ammo. They will shoot factory length ammo. I load to 1.180 for jacketd ammo and 1.210 for moly or lead.

[Will_M]

Some guy will completely disable the slide lock in order to prevent the slide from locking back with one round left in the mag. This is known to happen with 2011's.

[Sullie]

Some guy will completely disable the slide lock in order to prevent the slide from locking back with one round left in the mag. This is known to happen with 2011's.

So this is common? The reasons I ask are two fold: 1) I don't see why the slide locking back when the gun is empty would be undesirable. I understand that the goal in USPSA is never to run the gun dry. If you forget to do a speed reload where you planned to and eventually run dry then the gun's indication is that it goes click instead of bang. This necessitates a reload and rack the slide to get back in the action. If the slide locked back it would indicate you were empty and could then do an emergency, or slidelock, reload. Which is faster than the first scenario. 2) The other reason I ask is because when I buy my new gun I want to use it for IDPA also. The goal in IDPA is to only do emergency reloads whenever possible, because otherwise you must retain the ejected magazine= SLOW.

[Matt Cheely]

It's the aftermarket mag followers that cause the premature slide lock due to their design. Great for getting extra rounds in the mag, not so good for getting the slide to lock back when you want.

[Ronnie j]

I think that the the oe sti/sv followers were the original culprits of the problem. Disabling the slide stop was the solution. I think that grams fixed the problem with his followers call him to know for sure. I would not modify my limited gun to not lock back unless there were no alternative. BTW my sv will not lock back it was slide stop was "fixed" by a previous owner and I've shot it like that for years with no thought of "un-fixing" it.

[spanky]

Definitely valid reasons.

[8082011]

this might be of interest to you. Bob (Brazos) has an article about this.

http://www.brazoscustom.com/magart/0505.htm

[zinnmeister]

Try shooting your gun to empty, and pay attention. You can feel that no new round is being chambered and be prepared to reload & rack as needed. Also you can't over insert a magazine if the slide if forward. I've never seen this on a 2011 but have on a 1911 and it was not pretty

[G-ManBart]

Mine, and many others, will feed factory OAL .40 all day long just fine. That's not a rule, but it is common. Loading long does make for somewhat smoother feeding in many cases.

I don't buy the idea that loading long lets us use different loads...it doesn't really. Pressure is pressure, for the most part. If we loaded one of our combos with heavy bullets and fast powder at factory OAL, rather than long, it would simply take less powder to get to the same velocity...which means the same pressure is being generated.

Slide lock back or not is one of those things that's pretty much either or. My Limited gun locks back. I use aftermarket followers and adjust them so that they don't activate the slide lock until the magazine is really empty. This takes about ten minutes and something to trim plastic...that's about it. Some folks complain about locking back with one round left so they just deactivate the entire system, but that isn't necessary...a little lowering of the ledge that contacts the slide stop is all that's required. Some folks will claim they don't want to do slide lock reloads because the new mag/ammo can go too far, hit the ejector and completely tie up the gun, or break the ejector. The problem with that (for me anyway) is that if the same person were shooting L-10 with the same gun, they'd have it set so the slide would lock back. Same thing for those folks shooting Production or Single Stack....they have their guns lock back and you don't see many, or any, broken ejectors or stuck mags from over insertion. I know it can happen, but in lots of years I don't think I've ever seen it happen, much less had it happen to me.

The FAR more common scenario is the guy/gal who has their gun set to not lock back...they're shooting, have a couple of mikes to make up, or something odd happens to get them off their planned reload. They're shooting until the gun goes click...then the drop the mag, put a new mag in, bring the gun up and try to fire...but it's still not loaded, so they rack the slide and go back to shooting, only to be royally ticked off after the run. If their gun had locked back it would have saved them a lot of time....hey, it didn't go bang and look, the slide is locked back...time to reload!

A few minutes with a dremel or razor knife can prevent all of that.

Choose at your own risk! R,

[muahdib4]

Well, I was reading this since I do have a 2011 (STI Edge) that I picked up used but will be waiting to shoot in a match since I still have a special love for my Glock (love both so I'm not hating on either one just want to make sure the STI will be 100% reliable before I field it) and I noticed that the Edge I have doesn't lock back. To be honest, I don't really want my slide to lock back. On my Glock I have the extended slide release and my thumb actually rides that so my slide never does. On a 2011 or 1911, for that matter, it takes quite a stretch to reach the slide release anyway and actually involves (for me) having to move my grip on the gun. I find it much faster to simply rack the slide. True, that could be done with the slide locked back but I just prefer to rack the slide fully. I guess it comes down to simple preference for me though I'm sure most everyone else on this forum does have more experience than I do. So, don't necessarily listen to me...just letting you know my preference.

I have been reading about the long loaded ammo and I'll keep following the thread and reading others of course to see what seems to work best. I do dig my Edge and want it to perform it's best so that all mistakes...are mine.

[CocoBolo]

Here is my .02 on loading long. First my Edge will eat anthing you put in it and run all day long. I can't recall ever having a miss feed in thousands of rounds, same goes for my SVI Limited gun.

I started shooting limited with a CZ TS a very good gun but it requires factory length ammo. When loading jacketed bullets with WST at 5.1gr after the brass was reloaded a few times I started having issues with the brass splitting and blew the top off a few. This does not a good match make. I bought the Edge because I fell on a smoking hot deal and planned just to sell it a make a few bucks. I started loading at 1.200 liked it and with the longer length I have not had a single case split or a top pop off. It also lets you have the option of shooting Moly or Cast bullets, I shoot http://www.bayoubullets.net now in it. This drops the pressure even further loading only 4.7gr instead of 5.1 for major.

If your expectation is that buying a new gun will move you up a class or two then wrong, some how we shoot all guns with about the same lack of skill, when you find one that fits you and feels good and you have confidence in it and you can hit the target most of the time that is as good as it gets. I've been playing with open guns for the better part of two years and I'm just now hitting the same average I had with a Limited gun.

[Croomrider]

I don't buy the idea that loading long lets us use different loads...it doesn't really. Pressure is pressure, for the most part. If we loaded one of our combos with heavy bullets and fast powder at factory OAL, rather than long, it would simply take less powder to get to the same velocity...which means the same pressure is being generated.

I don't think this statement is entirely accurate. Even though you may end up with the same velocity the pressure curves will be different and the shorter loaded round will have a higher initial spike on the pressure. I'm not saying it will necessarily take anything to a dangerous level but the longer loaded round with the same powder and velocity should be at a lower pressure and be easier in the brass etc.

Mike

[Sullie]

I understand that many load long for feeding reliability. However, I am a little confused about some of the statements above. Someone said that loading long allows you to get "softer" felt recoil. Sure, with the same powder load it would make for softer shooting because of the lower pressure, and therefore lower velocity and lower power factor. You can accomplish the same thing by keeping the OAL the same and lowering the powder charge. However, in order to keep the same velocity and pressure between two rounds of different lengths you would have to change the powder charge, no? This would require more powder in a longer loading to make power factor= more powder equals more money sent down the barrel. So it seems to me, unless I am missing something, that the only reason to load long is for feeding reliability if that is what your gun likes.

Coco, you made it sound like by loading long you could use moly/poly bullets when you couldn't otherwise......why is that?

[Croomrider]

Loading long is very similar to going to a different cartridge with a longer case and more capacity. You will see much discussion in the open forum about how much easier it is to load for 38 super compared to 9-major. The main difference is just a longer case and more capacity. I've never loaded 9-major but I'll bet they don't have much of the bullet in the case. As far a pressure, you have to remember that the pressure is not the same behind the bullet the whole time it is in the barrel. This is commonly called the pressure curve. Changing the volume of the case behind the bullet can definitely affect the pressure and even the curve to some degree. Loading long and then adding just enough powder to make the same velocity does not mean you will have the same pressure curve as the shorter loaded round. What it feels like is more subjective!

Mike

[Aircooled6racer]

Sullie: I load to 1.180" and my Eagle type pistol likes it as well as my Single Stack 40 I built. The Eagle is a good choice for a dual purpose pistol for IDPA and USPSA. Get it with a bushing barrel and have fun. If you like that then you could always get a Bull barrel fitted for USPSA to see how that works for you. I plan on installing a bull barrel in my 2011 I built to see how it feels with major loads over the bushing barrel. I also want to see how it works over the 6" 2011 I built. I shoot 180gr and 185 grain bullets in my Edge type pistol. Hope this helps. Thanks, Eric

[dbxdm9]

In USPSA - reloading prior to slide lock means faster reloading as you don't have to release the slide.

In IDPA - reloading prior to slide lock means slower reloading as you have to stow a functional, non-empty mag.

[Sullie]

In USPSA - reloading prior to slide lock means faster reloading as you don't have to release the slide.

In IDPA - reloading prior to slide lock means slower reloading as you have to stow a functional, non-empty mag.

Exactly!!

[Torogi]

my SVI 40 sometimes slide lock on empty mag or doesnt slide lock at all, sometimes it slide lock and there is still one on the mag, but one thing for sure, if its on slide lock and i slam one mag in there, the slide lock releases itself. so no need to grab behind the slide or release slide lock

i have to try previous suggestions, maybe its the follower. i want it to slide lock on empty and when i slam a magazine in it will release like the way it is now. i dont know how to do that though

[usmc1974]

I've always wondered why anyone would want their slide to not lock back...

For what it is worth, it has been known to happen, and I have seem it happen, that when the slide locks back an you use to much force on your reload you can pop a round out or stand it up causing a malfunction. We all have used enough force one time or another to make the slide release on its own.

[G-ManBart]

I don't buy the idea that loading long lets us use different loads...it doesn't really. Pressure is pressure, for the most part. If we loaded one of our combos with heavy bullets and fast powder at factory OAL, rather than long, it would simply take less powder to get to the same velocity...which means the same pressure is being generated.

I don't think this statement is entirely accurate. Even though you may end up with the same velocity the pressure curves will be different and the shorter loaded round will have a higher initial spike on the pressure. I'm not saying it will necessarily take anything to a dangerous level but the longer loaded round with the same powder and velocity should be at a lower pressure and be easier in the brass etc.

Mike

You know, ballistics are funny. Sometimes the things we "know" aren't quite as concrete as we think.

I wasn't talking in absolutes, but max pressure is still max pressure whether it's earlier or later in the powder burn. Actually, this one is sort of easy to compare since 10mm and .40 are often loaded with the same powders and bullets and everybody likes to say loading .40 long sort of makes it into a 10mm case volume wise (not too far off really). Winchester lists pressure data for both, using one of the powders mentioned, which is helpful.

10mm with a 180gr Win JHP and 5.0gr of WST at 950fps and 30,500PSI out of a 5" barrel.

.40S&W with a 180gr Win JHP and 5.0gr of WST at 900fps and 28,100PSI out of a 4" barrel.

In this case, give the .40 gun a 5" barrel and you're probably looking at exactly the same velocity. Most manufacturers claim something from 1-3K PSI error, so the two above could be identical, a little high, or a little low, but very, very similar. In the end, it takes about the same amount of pressure to push a bullet of X weight, to Y speed.

That wasn't the only example of data that's strikingly close.

10mm with a 170gr Win JHP and 5.5gr of WST at 1020fps and 29,500PSI.

.40S&W with a 170gr Win JHP and 5.5gr of WST at 970fps and 30,100PSI.

Pretty similar to the above...give the .40 the extra inch of barrel, and it will make up the 50fps with the same pressure.

I sure don't see the extra case volume lowering the pressure to get a set velocity as a rule. In some cases it might and in some cases it won't since powders don't all act the same. I did compare numbers for Win 231 and WSF and they stuck pretty much to the pattern above.

While this thread it about .40 2011s, and this is enough ballistics for such a thread, I added this because I wouldn't want someone to think loading long magically drops the pressure. It doesn't, and some of the highest pressure loads we'll see on the range are actually .40 Major with heavy bullets and fast powders, loaded long. There's no free lunch in these equations....if you simply load longer, the velocity and pressure will drop. To get the velocity back you have to add more powder, which increases the pressure back to where you started. R,

[G-ManBart]

For what it is worth, it has been known to happen, and I have seem it happen, that when the slide locks back an you use to much force on your reload you can pop a round out or stand it up causing a malfunction. We all have used enough force one time or another to make the slide release on its own.

I have never had any of those things happen with a 1911 or 2011. R,

[usmc1974]

For what it is worth, it has been known to happen, and I have seem it happen, that when the slide locks back an you use to much force on your reload you can pop a round out or stand it up causing a malfunction. We all have used enough force one time or another to make the slide release on its own.

I have never had any of those things happen with a 1911 or 2011. R,

what can I say your a lucky man. Still in all it happens.