There's A Hole In The Bucket

[Flexmoney]

After I bring my mag to the magwell...I tend to keep the gun static, and push the mag up. This make is slower for me to get back on target.

I am reloading pretty much in front of my face.

Options that come to mind:

• Start the reload with the gun in a different position (don't like that idea).
  
• Keep the gun still, and move the mag up (current problem method), and find a way to make it work.
  
• Keep the mag still and move the gun down (might be hard to transition into moving the mag quickly to the magwell, then putting on the breaks completely).
  
• Move the gun down, and the mag up, at the same time...then press out from a "high-ready" position (likely option).
  

The problem now isn't a fast reload, it is getting the reload done and getting back on target quickly...each and every time.

[Little Bill]

Flex-

If I remember correctly, Barnhart reloads using your last option (move both), or at least he does sometimes. I vaguely remember seeing it on one of the tapes. I bet that a good consistent static reload using this method could be burned-in with dryfire, but as you said, I don't know how reliable it would be on the move. You are moving 35oz-ish of gun and a mag, instead of just a mag. Imagine moving a Big Gulp mug full of water up and down while moving.....<splash><splash>...now aim a mag....

What is your time on static reloads?

[Flexmoney]

Watching the Barnhart tapes again is what helped me realize that I was pushing the gun out of position. Instead of bringing the gun and mag together (after they meet at the magwell), I just keep going with the mag.

[rwmagnus]

Flex

This is an area I'm working on in dry fire practice currently. Your 4th option above is what works best. The gun must come down enough for you to see whats going on. As Oz says you push back out to acquire the sights for the next shot. W/o bringing the gun down you loose some leverage on the reload and if anything goes wrong your instinctive next move will to bring the gun down and back towards you anyway. Matt's DVD's V4 & V5 covered the reloads nicely.

BTW far be it from me to be the resident expert!

[Bill Schwab]

Flex,

Not sure I completely understand the problem with your current technique...are you saying that when the mag hits the gun you are pushing the gun up over your line of sight, thus obscuring your targets and causing the issue of getting back on target quickly?

[EricW]

After I bring my mag to the magwell...I tend to keep the gun static, and push the mag up. This make is slower for me to get back on target.

No entiendo.

[eric nielsen]

Flex

On running reloads, I decide to just move the mag, like you're already doing.

On standing, I guess I move both hands together, most of the time. I think the more I *try* to move the gun down, the more likely I am to be early & then screw the whole thing up.

MHO, the mag change is more complex than the draw & requires quality of practice more than quantity. Don't inadvertantly train yourself to be sloppy.

PS - if anyone develops pain in their weak-side wrist, try backing WAY off of the amount of mag-change practice you're doing. And take your wristwatch off while you're doing it. Took 2 surgeries & several missed tournaments for me to figure that out. Now I practice reloads with an empty mag & no more than 3 days a week.

[Flexmoney]

Hmmmm...I must have caused some confusion...and i don't have time to fix it right now (dropping my gf at the airport, then hoping to catch an SO class).

I am simply talking about standing...not moving.

The static and the moving I mentioned earlier is for the gun. Not me.

I bring the gun in close to, and in fornt of, the face...similar to the Burkett stuff.

I then bring the fresh mag to the magwell...to the "pause point"...just before inserting the mag into the well.

From here is where my post starts...with the options above.

(I'll be back to clear this up...gotta move on for now)

[spook]

Flex, shouldn't you focus be on how your hands end up when the fresh mag clicks in? Getting both hands on the gun the correct way seems most important in the last portion of the reload. Especially connecting the left hand with the gun again.

I'm thinking out loud here:

If neutrality is what you strive for in that last part of the reload, I would say that the best way is to move both hands.

It would seem difficult and inconsistent to have both the gun and the mag moving before the mag is in, though, so I would try to get the mag in while holding the gun still and move both gun and mag at the moment the mag enters the magwell.

[Flexmoney]

Flex, shouldn't you focus be on how your hands end up when the fresh mag clicks in? Getting both hands on the gun the correct way seems most important in the last portion of the reload. Especially connecting the left hand with the gun again.

That is exactly the issue. By not moving the gun (down), I finish the load high and forward (from the momentum of seating the mag). This makes it difficult to get the weak hand positioned and present the gun properly to the target.

I'm thinking out loud here:

If neutrality is what you strive for in that last part of the reload, I would say that the best way is to move both hands.

I agree.

It would seem difficult and inconsistent to have both the gun and the mag moving before the mag is in, though, so I would try to get the mag in while holding the gun still and move both gun and mag at the moment the mag enters the magwell.

Right.

I go for 4 steps in the reload:

1. Weak hand grabs fresh mag. Strong hand ejects empty mag.

2. Strong hand brings gun into recieve position. Weak hand brings mag just to the "pause before insert" position.

3. Seat the mag...bring the gun down as the mag pushes up. Finish in the "high-ready" position. (this is where my technique had become sloppy)

4. Present the gun to target. (this part was being hurt by the poor technique in step 3)

[spook]

Flex, I like your 4 step schedule.

I think the main problems in ending up the wong way after step 3 is that force of both hands are not equal and/or not in the right direction. I'd say that the perfect reload would have both hands reach eachother on the centerline of your torso with equal force (in this case the force it takes to seat the mag, so each hand would move with 1/2 that force).

The hands would arrive in a symetrical position and "roll" inwards towards a nice shooting grip while you extend/move to high ready, I guess.

[j1b]

Flex,

I understand your issue, but find no fault with your current technique. When I was active i FOCUSED on keeping the gun static - for me it was critical to consistent, quick reloads. If I ever got to the point where I was occasionally missing loads, I knew it was because I was letting the gun move around on me.

I don't ever recall having issues acquiring targets, or getting back on them.

Clearly techniques are better today than when I was doing it. Maybe the way you are describing is the new way and produces better results so I don't want to pull you away from the direction. I just remembered that the way you first described your load worked out well for me.

JB

[tightloop]

Mr. Sunshine here:

Left hand goes for the mag while the right dumps the old mag. At the same time, my right elbow comes to my torso and cants the gun so I can see into the well. Now left hand brings the new mag to the gun, pauses, seats it, left hand assumes position on the pistol and then push out and slightly up to get back on target.

Works for me, static reload with SS in .85.

Tloop

[Steve Anderson]

I have never broken it down into that many steps and I wonder if perhaps you're over-complicating it?

I have always solved technique issues by going super slow, finding something I don't like, then changing it.

My only suggestion would be:

Start with gun on target is freestyle stance, gun empty.

Hit the button, grab a mag, bring JUST to magwell.

Start super slow mo NOW!

As you insert the mag, what is it about the whole affair that you don't like?

I would envision a Glock at about chest level at 45 degrees. Slam it home, even it out and raise it to target.

Rereading your last post, you may have the gun too high in your insert phase and be pushing it above the target with the insertion.

Of all the things that are important here, getting the gun back on target smoothly may be the most important thing.

If we are struggling with getting the sight picture back after a reload, we may panic and rush the shot...all sorts of badness starts there.

I would suggest about a million reps of the empty gun reload drill and the problem is likely to float away on its own....

SA

[Nik Habicht]

I would suggest about a million reps of the empty gun reload drill and the problem is likely to float away on its own....

SA

Just in case anyone missed it --- what Steve's saying is: "Pick one method and PRACTICE it!"

[wide45]

Try going at it backwards. Start in position to fire the first shot after the reload. Now work backward until you get to the pause point.

My take is that if you overstudy the motion, and learn to perfectly follow your program, you will be limited by that program. If you simply practice reloading, eliminate what does not work, and allow your motion to evolve, there is no limit.

[kevin c]

I know that some well known pros (MB for instance) teach a pause at insertion, but what I see the GMs, including MB, doing is mostly a smooth continuous movement of the weak hand from the belt up to and into the gun with the mag, with the hand then flowing up to acquire the firing grip smoothly (this on slo-mo from MB's DVD set).

I pause, and it seems very slow to me to slow the movement of both hands for a second, then accelerate them back together.

So, are the GMs eliminating the pause because they no longer need to do it (proper hand/gun/mag position and angle burned in over tens of thousands of repetitions) or is their pause just compressed, the way the rest of their technique has everything compressed into a shorter time than what a B class prole such as myself can manage?

[DogmaDog]

Flex,

It sounds like your gun is vertical, or that the mag well is pointed at the ground at an angle when you reload.

For me, the 4 steps look like"

1) weak hand grabs fresh mag, strong hand ejects old mag

2) weak hand brings mag to loading position. Strong hand pulls straight back and rotates, so mag well is in front of center of chest, pointing to the left. Step 2 concludes with a perceived "pause point", but I don't think I actually stop...it's more just an instantaneous slow-down.

3) seat magazine. Weak hand firmly shoves mag into mag well, while strong hand and gun move only slightly toward magazine...just enough to counter any tendency for my weak hand to bump the gun off into right field. As magazine seats, the weak hand kinda slides off the basepad while the strong hand rotates the gun back to vertical. The weak hand slides onto the rotating gun to reacquire the firing grip. Eyes during this stage leave the butt/magwell and focus on the next target (or shooting position if I'm moving)

4) Presentation. Grip continues to solidify (I hope) as weak hand and strong hand together push gun out to target. Eyes come from target, back to sights to take the shot.

At least, that's how I conceptualize it. The extent to which I actually execute it that way may vary. I think the method for reaquiring your firing grip after seating the mag is especially important.

DogmaDog

[mcoliver]

I would envision a Glock at about chest level at 45 degrees. Slam it home, even it out and raise it to target.

Anybody would likely look away with an ugly gun like that in front of their face. Now THAT is a problem 'coz you should be looking at the target instead.

Seriously, I too, use the pause during insertion. But the moment I confirm the mag and well is aligned, my eyes are already back on target while the mag is being slammed in. Before, I never bring down the gun and the mag well is almost aligned with my eyes. This caused some problems because I cannot re-acquire targets with the gun in front of me blocking my view.

So I started bringing the gun down during insertion to meet the mag. The same time I'm already rotating the gun to vertical and my weak hand re-acquiring the grip. Also my eyes have already acquired the target I'll be engaging. It was very important to me to note that in this method, I can still see in my peripheral vision the top of the slide. The slide wasn't really way down, more like in line with my nose or upper lip. Getting first shots with the slide indexed during presentation was faster with more consistent hits for me.

Another thing I noted was that every reload I did that required me to move my head down to look for the well is already a blown reload (in terms of first shot times). When this occurs, I noticed I could not see the slide the moment I start looking for the next target. This usually occurs when there's movement with the reload.

[benos]

The "Flash/Blur" pics illustrate perfect technique, for me.

At the earliest possible instant, eject the mag and get that weak hand going for the new mag. The movements of each hand have nothing to do with each other - each is doing its own thing as quickly as possible. (Think may seem insignificant, but think about it.)

As mag is leaving, gun is positioned as in pic, and tilted slightly so you can just see the mag well opening. (In practice you should be able to remember seeing the mag come out of the gun.)

Eye stays locked on the mag well.

Almost always, new mag goes straight from pouch to seated in mag well. If speed isn't critical, however, then I may slightly pause the mag at the mag well opening before continuing to seat it.

The key for the first sentence above is keeping the gun absolutely motionless from the instant the spent mag clears the gun till the new mag is seated. In practice, learn to feel how your whole arm feels as it is waiting, perfectly still.

For me, if the gun's "waiting position" is any higher or farther out, I may not be able to get back "behind the gun" (proper grip and position) before the gun returns to the index. Any lower and it's harder to see the mag well as well as it takes too long to return to the index.

We could debate whether it might be faster to move the mag and the gun toward each other to seat the mag, but if a long, lanky-armed guy can consistently slam .80 loads, I don't think it matters.

In theory, it's easier to stick one thing into another thing if one of the things is motionless. As soon as both are moving you are totally dependent on the habit groove called muscle memory, whereas if one object is still it makes it easier for your eye to direct the other object to the goal. Think of it like shooting - how much harder would the sport be if all the targets were moving.

be

[Detlef]

TL (& Brian),

"consistently .80 reloads" needs some elaboration for me: Is that from shooting at the backstop to shooting at the backstop (shot-to-shot, no target to hit with either one)? Or is this A-hit-to-A-hit at 10 y (or 7 or 5 or 3)? To each one's own, but for me the bring-elbow-to-torso technique is easily a couple of tenths slower and also less consistent than what Flex describes (right in front of face; in fact, I noticed I bring the gun "up" a bit on reloading from my normal shooting hold of it!). I seem to recall that Grauffels reloads on the El Prez video were more than one sec shot-to-shot...

--Detlef

[tightloop]

Detlef

If you look at Brian's flash pics, you will notice that his elbow is way out from his torso in #1 and much closer, but not touching in #2.

I modify this just slightly. As I drop the spent mag, I am bringing my right arm and elbow to my torso, and at the same time grasping the new mag. As I bring the right elbow to my torso, I twist the gun almost 45 degrees with the shooting hand. I do not move the gun downward more than just down off the target and to the torso, ( that is about chin high, cause I have long arms) and bring the new mag to the well, NEVER taking my eyes off the opening.

As I index the new mag into the well (that is the pause for me), I reacquire the target with my eyes, slam the mag home, replace the left hand on the pistol while I am pushing it out and slightly up to get back on target.

That is a dry fire sequence for me. Start with the pistol on the target, at the beeb, reload and reacquire the target. Live fire is a bit slower. I never timed the draw shoot and reload, live fire. I set my timer at a par time of 1.0 and go down a tenth till I miss the reload, usually around .8. Can't do par time in hundreths on my timer but can run a string of ten without missing at .9.

Live fire is truly slower, Jake de Vita and I had a thread about draw shoot one, reload shoot one, reload shoot one. Old par time for this in the 80's was 4.5 for all A hits at 7 yds. I can do it in about 3.4, so it is about .6 slower than the dry fire drill I run.

[ErikW]

[uscbigdawg]

Flex,

I think from an efficiency of movement standpoint that moving the gun down, just to bring it back up again would be inhibitive. And, like Brian said, inserting a moving object into a fixed (not moving) object, is a hell of a lot simpler than both moving.

The analogy is baseball vs. golf. Hitting a baseball is mechanically more complex than hitting a golf ball, since you have a moving stick (for lack of better description) attempting to hit a moving object.

With that, I tend to break things into three steps:

1. Release mag as soon as possible, transitioning the eyes from the last shot to the magwell. Weak hand goes for the mag and pauses once the mag is at the magwell (basically I just eliminate step 2 from your list).

2. Insert the mag and reacquire grip, then transition eyes to the target.

3. Extend from "reload position" and execute next shot.

When I'm cookin' I can get to a .80 reload under live fire conditions. More consistenly it's around a .95. I bring the gun in about 6-8 inches more than Brian shows, but I think that's a function of just being lazy (i.e. don't want to reach as far ).

My problem is that reload faster with my Limited gun than I do with the Open gun. Go figure.

Rich

[Flexmoney]

I should clear up my issue some...

- This is nothing about speed. And, it's not a factor on up-close, or low, targets. (I peg-out at 1.55 on my dry-fire draw-one-reload-one drills at the lampshade.) I am looking for a more consistent presentation after the reload.

- The "pause" I am stating as a reference point. It may simply be a mnetal pause. Or, a "visual note".

- Post-pause is what I am looking to tweak. I can nail draws in the high .80's and low .90's for hits at 18y. I am able to do that by presenting the gun to my index/NPA. On my reloads, however, my presentation becomes a bit deformed.

On the tough stuff (that we actually have to aim on), this costs time.