Multigun Nationals Staff

[Schutzenmeister]

JJ,

That is always one big damn elephant, even at pistol nats.

The other little advantage to the RO's at least shooting a portion of the match is that the stages get an actual competitive shakedown. All kinds of problems get caught and fixed before the main match.

Just remember ... If the ROs scores are going to count, they must shoot EXACTLY the same courses as everyone else in the main match. Hence, if anything is altered or fixed, the ROs must reshoot it in the same configuration as what you will be required to do. Aside from the rules so stating, that's only fair!

[ken hebert]

Hmmm... Wonder why Mr. USPSA Mike Voight doesn't work MG nats...? Seems only natural that the poster child of the sport should be there in some official capacity, like RM? I be that would fix the issue of RO's shooting the match for score real quick.

In our volunteer driven sport this seems like the perfect method of how to lead by example.

[abn-rgr]

I do NOT support the concept of allowing non-certified ROs to work our National Championship matches. I believe this would seriously degrade the quality of the matches and raise more problems than it would solve.

Im wondering how in the heck all the Major 3 gun matches get by without certified RO's????? They must be a safety violation waiting to happen.....The mentality quoted above is one of the reasons the USPSA Multi Gun Nationals will never come close to being on par with the Outlaw matches. I am a cetified USPSA RO, and it wouldnt help me a bit for 3 Gun matches.

ETA there is no way I would volunteer my time as an RO if I wasnt able to shoot the matches.

Edited May 19, 2010 by abn-rgr

[wgnoyes]

Hmmm... Wonder why Mr. USPSA Mike Voight doesn't work MG nats...? Seems only natural that the poster child of the sport should be there in some official capacity, like RM? I be that would fix the issue of RO's shooting the match for score real quick.

In our volunteer driven sport this seems like the perfect method of how to lead by example.

MV isn't even a Level 1 RO, so he couldn't be Range Master at a Nationals. The USPSA bylaws designate him (the president) as the default Match Director for the national championships, but that position always finds itself being handed off to someone else.

[Bryan 45]

I'm not going to pretend I've seen it all, but one thing seems strange to me in this continual debate of USPSA vs. "Outlaw" rules.

The ones who seldom or never shoot 3 gun are the ones that are always saying the "outlaw" matches should use USPSA rules.

The vast majority of shooters who actually compete in 3 gun want the USPSA to keep their rules to themselves.

In the "outlaw" 3 gun matches I've shot over the last couple years I have yet to see any stage, prop, target, or action by a shooter that has made me concerned for anyone's safety- other than those issues that are also issues at USPSA matches due to a negligent shooter. This includes stages that have moving safety planes, sometimes up to 270 degrees, obstacles to shoot through and around, and hot holstering of handguns and slinging long guns on the clock.

Having said that, in order to keep this on topic, I would also have no interest in working a match I could not shoot. If it's a cost issue due to the additional days, make the RO's pay their hotel and provide no per diem for the day or two they are shooters. Combine all scores, let the ROs walk the prize table just like all other shooters. I have become a big supporter of the "if you don't like it, don't come back next year" ideology. But, considering that 3 gun shooters are accustomed to this at all other matches, I don't think USPSA would hear anyone whine.

But, I am not a certified RO, so my opinion doesn't matter. This is not an attack at anyone here, just my observations from local matches and those I've traveled to over the past couple years.

Edited May 19, 2010 by Bryan 45

[Alan Meek]

Hmmm... Wonder why Mr. USPSA Mike Voight doesn't work MG nats...? Seems only natural that the poster child of the sport should be there in some official capacity, like RM? I be that would fix the issue of RO's shooting the match for score real quick.

In our volunteer driven sport this seems like the perfect method of how to lead by example.

MV isn't even a Level 1 RO, so he couldn't be Range Master at a Nationals. The USPSA bylaws designate him (the president) as the default Match Director for the national championships, but that position always finds itself being handed off to someone else.

to quote the exact verbage from the current bylaws;

"serve as, or designate, the Match Director of, and have full and final authority concerning the United States National Championships,"

So the President of USPSA can serve as or designate the MD of the Nationals.

Just want to be clear on that tidbit.

[abn-rgr]

Good post Bryan. Bryan is one of the more experienced "non qualified" 3 gun RO's out there. Ill take him any day at my match.

Edited May 19, 2010 by abn-rgr

[ken hebert]

MV isn't even a Level 1 RO, so he couldn't be Range Master at a Nationals. The USPSA bylaws designate him (the president) as the default Match Director for the national championships, but that position always finds itself being handed off to someone else.

So you're telling me we have an elected president, who according to the bylaws of the body that he represents, is ignoring his responsibility as Match Director at the most important events that USPSA holds all year long (all nationals events) by passing the job off to someone else so he can circumvent the rules? The rules being that match staff may not compete in the main event.

I seem to remember hearing this from my parents when I was a kid.. Sounded like "do as I say but not as I do". Even as a kid I thought it was b.s.

[ken hebert]

to quote the exact verbage from the current bylaws;

"serve as, or designate, the Match Director of, and have full and final authority concerning the United States National Championships,"

So the President of USPSA can serve as or designate the MD of the Nationals.

Just want to be clear on that tidbit.

I understand what you've posted, but the problem I have with it is the part about "and have full and final authority". With this statement he seems to be able to have his cake and eat it too, if you get my drift.

[Flexmoney]

Lets get back on topic. - Admin.

As of today we've only received 26 applications for Staff at the Multigun Nationals. We'd sure like to see another 20 or so. Some of us are working very hard to make this a world class event, but we could sure use some more help! Take a look at the Staff Application at http://www.uspsa-nat...q2010Natnls.pdf and give it some thought.

Best Regards,

[A well Earled machine]

Most of you 3 gunners who have been around a while know me and you know that I can't shoot very well and R/O on the same day. It turns into a waste of ammo.

I’ve worked nearly all the 3 gun / Multigun nationals since 1999 and I don’t mind showing up for a couple days of setup then chasing you guys for 2-3 days. Trying to work in shooting the entire match on top of that is kind of silly – it just doesn’t work very well.

Last year Charlie and Chris worked like rented mules the week prior right up to the last minute, dropped their tools, picked up their guns and shot the match. I think if you asked them they probably could have shot a better match but that’s the breaks. We show up and get done what has to be done.

Most of us bring guns & gear to shoot whatever stages we think we can get away with shooting – like in the “Pat Winslow” days but that hasn’t happened the last few years.

Sure it would be cool to shoot a few stages, maybe half of them, and they should be the “problem” stages – to make sure they run. If the nationals were run like other matches we could probably pull it off – but the Nationals are just that – The Nationals. We have these national championship matches to determine the National Champion – not for tired, old, crusty curmudgeon R/O’s to play on.

If the match management wants’ to see if their stages will run I’ll be the first in line, gunned up & ready to “Prepare For Glory!”

Either way I’ll see you all in Vegas,

Earl

[Schutzenmeister]

I do NOT support the concept of allowing non-certified ROs to work our National Championship matches. I believe this would seriously degrade the quality of the matches and raise more problems than it would solve.

Im wondering how in the heck all the Major 3 gun matches get by without certified RO's????? They must be a safety violation waiting to happen.....The mentality quoted above is one of the reasons the USPSA Multi Gun Nationals will never come close to being on par with the Outlaw matches. I am a cetified USPSA RO, and it wouldnt help me a bit for 3 Gun matches.

ETA there is no way I would volunteer my time as an RO if I wasnt able to shoot the matches.

I'm sorry you feel that way ... But if you're going to quote me, please give credit to ALL of my positions of the subject. I'm FULLY in favor of allowing (and even encouraging) the ROs to shoot these matches for score. And I HAVE seen and heard of RO actions at some of these "Outlaw" matches that make my skin crawl WRT safety. We are each entitled to our own opinions ... I will not denigrate yours.

Back OT ... USPSA's official position is that ONLY certified ROs may work our National Championship Matches. This is to ensure a certain minimum level of familiarity with the rules and range commands and to do our best to ensure a consistent and level playing field - according to the rules of the sport - for all the shooters in the match. I support that position. I cannot understand why anyone would want to lessen this standard.

The bottom line is that this match needs qualified help to pull it off. If you are not a certified RO, or you simply would rather shoot than work the match, please do not disparage those who work their butts off to afford you the opportunity to shoot. The thread was started to try to round up more ROs who might be willing to give up some of their time and make this event happen. I'll be there ... I won't be the only one ... And I hope we can find enough qualified staff to make this a truly great match.

Thanks!

[hopalong]

Shutzenmeister,

Sorry for the delay getting back to you, work and a few other things took me away.

To answer your questions.

Yes I do 3-gun USPSA and outlaw. I am the match Director of the Mississippi 3-gun challenge (based on Ft.Benning/Horner rules) and have used USPSA rules in the pastfor 3-gun matches....

The reason for using Ft. Benning/ Horner rules is I can challenge my shooters in the stages easier(design) and have rules and scoring that allow me to do so without having to jump through a bunch of hoops to do so. (some things are done so much simpler outside of the sringent rules of USPSA) NOT good, not bad, just the way it is.

Answer 2:

Yes, I am a 7 year CRO and I also am the Match Director for the Memphis Charity Challenge, a level II USPSA match that recognizes Revolvers ONLY (We had 75 last year, the first one) and we raised $7000.00 for St. Jude Childrens research Hospital.

I understand completely your conscern for quality Range officers and your need for them. My statement about NROI insisting on Certified range officers stands. I understand their part(NROI) but just think there are good qualified 3-gunners out there that would do as good a job as the "Certified" ones.

Answer 3:

I am not able to come and be a part of the cure as I cannot be away from work that long. I am also starting to get really wound up in organizing the MS 3-gun Challenge (October 7-9) and the Memphis Charity CHallenge (November 5/6) and intend to spend most of my free time on them.

I still think that allowing the Staff to shoot the match completely only adds to the quality of a match as they then have a vested interest in it, better for everyone !!!!

But these are just opinions, (Check my tag line)

Good luck with your monumental task.

Respectively,

Hopalong

[Schutzenmeister]

Hopalong

LOVE your answer ... Good post! I too understand being "busy!"

I think (not certain) that the Ft Benning rules are somewhat similar to the DPMS rules. (If not, feel free to correct me!) Can you give me 1 or 2 'brief' examples of what you consider about the stage design and/or scoring rules that make Ft Benning easier to design/officiate than USPSA?

As you imply - Not good, Not bad ... Just opinions!

I wish I didn't live so far away ... It'd be nice to shoot some of the stuff in your neck of the woods.

[LChico]

Hopalong

LOVE your answer ... Good post! I too understand being "busy!"

I think (not certain) that the Ft Benning rules are somewhat similar to the DPMS rules. (If not, feel free to correct me!) Can you give me 1 or 2 'brief' examples of what you consider about the stage design and/or scoring rules that make Ft Benning easier to design/officiate than USPSA?

As you imply - Not good, Not bad ... Just opinions!

I wish I didn't live so far away ... It'd be nice to shoot some of the stuff in your neck of the woods.

This is going to be the quick & simple version. There are whole threads dedicated to these points. Ft Benning, Blue Ridge, R & R Racing, LaRue Tactical & Mississippi are using Horner Scoring. It is not like DPMS scoring. Two hits are required on paper targets (in DPMS scoring you can neutralize with one A hit). Points per stage are not 100 for every stage, but vary based on the number of firearms required on the stage. You only mark points down on the score sheets: that makes it quicker to score. You can use any paper targets you like (USPSA, IDPA, NRA, IPSC or anything else) or mix them up.

All of that is nice, but the really big gorilla in the room with USPSA and Multi Gun is major & minor scoring. I have scored matches using IMGA or DPMS type scoring (easiest), Horner Scoring (still pretty easy) & San Angelo version of USPSA Multi Gun Scoring (Not so much fun).

I cannot speak to the challenges of stage design because I do not do that. Getting scores out - that I know a little about.

Linda Chico (L-2035)

2010 Ft Benning 3 Gun Statistician

Edited May 20, 2010 by LChico

[Schutzenmeister]

OK ... I'm beginning to understand the 'easier' scoring system. The next question is probably the stage design one.

And one follow up, if I may: What is it about the 'Outlaw' matches that SHOOTERS seem to prefer over USPSA MG Rules? (Short list is OK, I'm not looking for War and Peace!)

[Benelli Chick]

Quickly...Reasons non-USPSA matches have more fun and creative stage design.

-Can use any targets I want. They don't have to be certain sizes. If I want to use bowling pins or mini paper targets, or steel that looks like a pronghorn or whatever...no problem.

-I can ship clays with any gun I want, rifle, pistol or shotgun. I'm pretty sure USPSA doesn't let you shoot them with pistol or slugs, and that adds a different challenge.

-I don't have to consider only 8 rounds from one position. We tend to use shoot 'em as you see 'em. If you could see 20 targets from one place...fine, they decide where to shoot them from.

-We don't like boxes etc so much, and from here, shoot these 3, move here, shoot these 4, move here.

(2009 Nationals did a really good job with originality within the rules. But, I have more freedom.)

-More shooter choice available. You can shoot paper with pistol, rifle or slugs...if I want to. You don't have to worry about major vs minor and be sure which target you shot with which gun. (San Angelo works pretty well for that, but still tougher than Horner or time plus.)

-I don't need to have fault lines that are at least so high. I can even just say shoot from behind this barrel or before you get to this tree. Often, we tell you to try to stay on the path and we don't need to put fault line along the 100 yard run. It saves fault line and work.

-We can have as many rounds as we want. 51 round pistol stage...no problemo!

-Par times are helpful as well. USPSA now allows this, good job!!!

-I can change penalties for targets that are somehow different, or just because I want to! For example, flying clays that dissappear, I can give you only a 5 second penalty for a miss if you engage it. USPSA has to add points for those targets to make the shooter shoot at them. I think it's tough to be a newbie and get charged 20 points for missing a flying target with a gun that I've never shot a moving target with before. I can make the decision for each target.

-I like the stage being the challenge, not the target. I like to have a medium round count stage be worth the same points as a higher round count stage because the challenge is different. I think the stage is the challenge, not each target.

-I can allow shooters to solve the challenge in a lot more ways. Thinking is part of 3-Gun. I know USPSA is speed, power, accuracy, but I like thinking, knowing your own strengths wnd shooting to them.

-I don't have to have anyone but JJ and I okay our stages. I don't have to talk someone else into seeing it my way. Somehow who maybe doesn't have the same frame of reference I do. We fight it out and then we take the complaints like 3-gunners. No one has to say what they like or don't like about it and I don't have to say why it works for us. Sure, shooters may complain about "not seeing targets" or "too hard to reset" or "not tactical." We take our lumps. If we see their point, we try to improve it next year. Somebody always likes the stage other people hate.

-I love our chance to do choices. I like to hear shooters come back and say, "I wish I'd done that a different way." That's a sign to us that we designed a good stage. Just hearing shooters come back and say "I wish I'd shot that faster", just means they didn't have to think and everybody shot it the same way which is not what either of us like to do.

That's just a few of the reasons, USPSA rules seem to limit stage design.

Denise

Edited May 21, 2010 by Benelli Chick

[RiggerJJ]

MV isn't even a Level 1 RO, so he couldn't be Range Master at a Nationals. The USPSA bylaws designate him (the president) as the default Match Director for the national championships, but that position always finds itself being handed off to someone else.

So you're telling me we have an elected president, who according to the bylaws of the body that he represents, is ignoring his responsibility as Match Director at the most important events that USPSA holds all year long (all nationals events) by passing the job off to someone else so he can circumvent the rules? The rules being that match staff may not compete in the main event.

I seem to remember hearing this from my parents when I was a kid.. Sounded like "do as I say but not as I do". Even as a kid I thought it was b.s.

the last two years MINIMUM he was MD, AND shot the match...

jj

Edited May 21, 2010 by RiggerJJ

[buzzworm]

OK ... I'm beginning to understand the 'easier' scoring system. The next question is probably the stage design one.

And one follow up, if I may: What is it about the 'Outlaw' matches that SHOOTERS seem to prefer over USPSA MG Rules? (Short list is OK, I'm not looking for War and Peace!)

Denise sums it up very well, but I would like to add this. While getting ready to go out to RM3G a while back, I showed my oldest son the rules for the match. I think it was three pages long, most of it was safety, and some stuff about different equipment per division. Then I showed him one USPSA rule BOOK, just for that one type match. There are so many rules, trying to cover every little aspect that MAY show up, that it can take away a lot of the fun (and freedom) that a stage designer might want to put in.

I hope you get all the certified ROs needed to put on the nats.

[Schutzenmeister]

Thanks Denise ... You always have been just a little 'fiesty!' (That's a good thing ...)

I understand what you're saying and see where you're coming from. I don't necessarily agree with all of it, but I do hear you!

Edited May 21, 2010 by Schutzenmeister

[Flexmoney]

I got this PM that I will share:

Can't that thread be split?

Asking for RO's vs complaining about Mike and USPSA rules?

I don't have time to split it out right now, but I will ask folks to stay on topic (for a second time now).

- Admin.

[Charles Bond]

The idea that the range staff should get to shoot this match is a noble one. No one at USPSA wants to ignore their needs but the fact is that this is a match that is going to require at least 2 days to shoot if the range staff is going to shoot. We do not have any extra staff to run the range staff over 2 days prior to the main match and even if we had volunteers to come in and do this, the cost of doing so (providing housing and meals) for staff to run the range staff would inflate the costs of the match significantly.

The only way I know of that you could shoot the staff is to embed the range staff in squads and havce them move through the stages with the shooters and there are so many problems with that situation that it does not even bear listing. While that is a way to run a local match, it fails when you are trying to host a match of this level.

For anyone to suggest that the reason it can not be done is because the USPSA rules are either too long or too complicated is just wrong. I am completely aware that there are many matches with 3 pages of rules. I also know which rule book they turn to when they have a situation that arises that is not addressed in their 3 pages of rules.

It is also not the scoring system. While the USPSA scoring system has some challenges, that is in no way related to the time it would take the range staff to shoot the match and it does not speak to the cost of doing so. While I acknowledge there are problems with the scoring system, those problems have nothing to do with how fast you can run shooters through a stage.

Whether we like or dislike everything USPSA does, the one thing that is undisputed about USPSA is the quality of NROI. That does not mean that sometimes range staff does not make a mistabke. But I have been to many non USPSA matches that thought they could run their matches without staff who had graduated from the NROI program. In every case by year 3 they had almost no one on the match staff who has not graduated from that program.

[wgnoyes]

All of that is nice, but the really big gorilla in the room with USPSA and Multi Gun is major & minor scoring. I have scored matches using IMGA or DPMS type scoring (easiest), Horner Scoring (still pretty easy) & San Angelo version of USPSA Multi Gun Scoring (Not so much fun).

Uh... we don't use those "S A" words anymore....

EzWinScore 4.0 does multigun, and CD's are being burned for distribution as we speak.

It also does TimePlus

[LChico]

Back on Topic (see warning from Flexmoney)

My reasons for working the Multi Gun Nationals, even though Staff cannot shoot the match

1. It's in Las Vegas! I am always looking for a good excuse for a trip to Las Vegas. In this case, the travel allowance from USPSA does not completely cover my travel costs, but it takes a pretty big chunk out of the cost of my flight. If you live closer, or live near a major airline hub where there are options on the flights, you will probably be able to cover the cost of travel.

2. You get to go back to the casino at night: Lots of options for entertainment and relaxing after a long day on the range. Even the budget accommodations in Las Vegas are nice. They understand hospitality in that town. Even before the economic downturn, there are plenty of low cost or free things to do.

3. Your spare time on & off the range can be spent with some of the best people: the MultiGun crowd is fun & just a little bit crazy.

4. The people who are working hard on this match are trying to change the perception of USPSA MultiGun. They are so dedicated to this mission that they are a joy to work with (Charlie, Larry, Rick and company - you guys are simply the best & I am excited to be associated with this match).

Linda Chico (L-2035)

2010 USPSA MultiGun Nationals Statistician

Edited May 21, 2010 by LChico

[wgnoyes]

Back on T...

You can't possibly tell me that's not interesting to you!