No.343 Posted April 25, 2010 Share Posted April 25, 2010 MG 4.3.1.7 states: "Metal scoring targets need not be painted after each competitor." Does that mean that I CANNOT ask to have my target painted or be allowed to paint my own target before shooting? Just curious. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehli Posted April 25, 2010 Share Posted April 25, 2010 No. It means that they can be painted, not that they must be painted. If they can be painted, then, of course, it doesn't mean that they cannot be painted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted April 25, 2010 Share Posted April 25, 2010 MG 4.3.1.7 states: "Metal scoring targets need not be painted after each competitor." Does that mean that I CANNOT ask to have my target painted or be allowed to paint my own target before shooting? Just curious. Thanks The odds are that targets will be painted according to match procedure -- which might be prior to the squad's attempt at the stage or prior to each shooter's attempt, or anything that the match administration decides..... You can certainly ask -- but there's nothing requiring an RO team to comply with your request either.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No.343 Posted April 26, 2010 Author Share Posted April 26, 2010 ...or anything that the match administration decides..... That's exactly what brings up the question in my mind. I can just imagine the answer could be: "We'd love to help you out, but we're a little behind. Sorry." I just don't understand why it is that every level II or above pistol match gets fresh paint for every shooter, but 3 gun is different. What is the logic that determines that a 20 yard pistol shot deserves fresh paint to provide a level playing field, but a 200 yard rifle shot does not deserve the same treatment? I'm just curious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted April 26, 2010 Share Posted April 26, 2010 ...or anything that the match administration decides..... That's exactly what brings up the question in my mind. I can just imagine the answer could be: "We'd love to help you out, but we're a little behind. Sorry." I just don't understand why it is that every level II or above pistol match gets fresh paint for every shooter, but 3 gun is different. What is the logic that determines that a 20 yard pistol shot deserves fresh paint to provide a level playing field, but a 200 yard rifle shot does not deserve the same treatment? I'm just curious. Time -- as in reset time between shooters. On a typical pistol stage, painting targets can occur in the same amount of time as scoring and pasting paper..... On a long distance steel only rifle stage, with either flashers or auto-resetting targets, time per shooter is often pretty long just for the shooting. Add in time for someone to run a 1/4 mile and a match can really bog down --- even with four-wheelers..... In an ideal match, we'd paint for every shooter..... To get there we might need to accept some stage design limits.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No.343 Posted April 26, 2010 Author Share Posted April 26, 2010 Well Nik, I know what you are saying is right. Time is THE issue. I just totally disagree that this statement should be in the rules. THE issue should be the sight picture provided for the shooter, but that dead horse has been beaten a few times already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Hefta Posted April 26, 2010 Share Posted April 26, 2010 I run a local club and we don't paint the steel all of the time, to me it's not a time issue, it's a money issue, paint is not cheap and we try to keep costs down at our level 1 matches. When we run our Points Matches then we run the match as if it was a level 2 match and everyting gets painted. If someone requested that the steel gets painted, I would paint the steel for that shooter without a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted April 26, 2010 Share Posted April 26, 2010 I run a local club and we don't paint the steel all of the time, to me it's not a time issue, it's a money issue, paint is not cheap and we try to keep costs down at our level 1 matches. When we run our Points Matches then we run the match as if it was a level 2 match and everyting gets painted. If someone requested that the steel gets painted, I would paint the steel for that shooter without a problem. I am pretty cheap, but... Walmart paint covers more than well enough. It's $1 a can. If you gain/keep one shooter...you have more than covered the cost of a bunch of cans of paint (more than you will use in one match). I think you have more to gain by painting, if it is a cost consideration for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted April 26, 2010 Share Posted April 26, 2010 Well Nik, I know what you are saying is right. Time is THE issue. I just totally disagree that this statement should be in the rules. THE issue should be the sight picture provided for the shooter, but that dead horse has been beaten a few times already. Whatever occurs at the match -- it should run the same way for every squad/shooter. I'd prefer low round count, long stages with painting in between shooters. A long distance stage shouldn't take appreciably longer than a 32 round hoser or a technically difficult medium course..... If the stage is running 3 minutes per shooter for shooting, it's too long.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No.343 Posted April 26, 2010 Author Share Posted April 26, 2010 I run a local club and we don't paint the steel all of the time, to me it's not a time issue, it's a money issue, paint is not cheap and we try to keep costs down at our level 1 matches. When we run our Points Matches then we run the match as if it was a level 2 match and everyting gets painted. If someone requested that the steel gets painted, I would paint the steel for that shooter without a problem. I am pretty cheap, but... Walmart paint covers more than well enough. It's $1 a can. If you gain/keep one shooter...you have more than covered the cost of a bunch of cans of paint (more than you will use in one match). I think you have more to gain by painting, if it is a cost consideration for you. I hope a lot more people reach the same understanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_pinto Posted April 27, 2010 Share Posted April 27, 2010 I run a local club and we don't paint the steel all of the time, to me it's not a time issue, it's a money issue, paint is not cheap and we try to keep costs down at our level 1 matches. When we run our Points Matches then we run the match as if it was a level 2 match and everyting gets painted. If someone requested that the steel gets painted, I would paint the steel for that shooter without a problem. I am pretty cheap, but... Walmart paint covers more than well enough. It's $1 a can. If you gain/keep one shooter...you have more than covered the cost of a bunch of cans of paint (more than you will use in one match). I think you have more to gain by painting, if it is a cost consideration for you. +1 Flex. I also subscribe to the paint between squads for long range and let the iron sighters go first. I had this conversation with No. 343 today at lunch and he brings up a good point. What were they thinking when someone thought to include that verbiage in the rules. I guess there is a reason why there weren't enough limited shooters to recognize at the nats last year. Maybe we could petition this to be changed and in return we (iron sight shooters) go to Vegas in the fall! Just a thought?!?!?! M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Hefta Posted April 27, 2010 Share Posted April 27, 2010 I am pretty cheap, but... Walmart paint covers more than well enough. It's $1 a can. If you gain/keep one shooter...you have more than covered the cost of a bunch of cans of paint (more than you will use in one match). I think you have more to gain by painting, if it is a cost consideration for you. Ok fine, we must be lazy then. Actually we run a lot of winter matches up here in MN and we get used to not painting all of the time because it's too damn cold to paint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted April 27, 2010 Share Posted April 27, 2010 its just lazy and cheap!!!!!!!!! its not time. Trust me, I've seen it done correctly and with 300ish shooters and no time delays. So if its taking you too much time to paint targets for shooters then you do not have the talent or logistics to put on a large match, and should rethink your plan. and you're right this horse is dead and no amount of firsthand experience for a properly run match, is going to change the minds of others. trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No.343 Posted April 28, 2010 Author Share Posted April 28, 2010 The fact that targets should be painted is a dead horse. I don't think that the fact that the rules say that targets don't need to be painted is a dead horse. I would hope that MG 4.3.1.7 can be removed from the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elynch2007 Posted April 28, 2010 Share Posted April 28, 2010 This a M.G. rule. Most pistol only stages will get painted between shooters, but shotgun steel will almost always not get painted because it is not just a quick shot on one spot. If you have to repaint the face of the target every 3 minutes the paint does not dry and is would be dripping off the bottom of poppers after a couple of squads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calishootr Posted April 30, 2010 Share Posted April 30, 2010 what flex said....paintthe damned steel, at least between squads, too many 3 gun matches ive beento where onthe long range rifle stage walk thru we were still asking each other if we saw all ofthetargets...too many times ive been to matches where saving a buck a can on paint madefor a frustrating day on the rifle course...and...you will lose shooters, 40 bucks plus ammo plus gas???? to be miserable??? id rather spend that on decent giants tickets and a bottle of tums(forthe waythey are playing of late) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.Schmitt Posted April 30, 2010 Share Posted April 30, 2010 Also, spray paint isn't the only option. For an all day shoot or Shotgun a painters pail and a roller work great. Its just a dip in the pail and you can hit, who knows, probably 6 to 10 steels or pp. Jay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wicked Wrister Posted May 1, 2010 Share Posted May 1, 2010 (edited) From a "fairness" standpoint, it could be said that all steel should be painted between every shooter, like steel challenge. I don't think this is necessary however. Most of my experience has been fresh paint, slug paper, etc. between squads and that has always worked just fine. Give the iron boys and girls a chance to go first and everyone feels they have an equal opportunity to see what they want to see. If you've ever shot at Tac-Pro, you'll know that they don't paint any steel. The 300 rifle steel is all matte gray, but it's the same for everyone. I personally like the challenge, even as an iron shooter. I agree that the rule should either require paint for each shooter, or say nothing at all. As it is stated now, it seems rather vague and pointless. Also, J. Schmitt is absolutely right about rollers. They are much more efficient and cost effective than aerosol, plus you don't look like you had a flour fight from all the overspray. Edited May 1, 2010 by Wicked Wrister Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 2, 2010 Share Posted May 2, 2010 its just lazy and cheap!!!!!!!!! its not time. Trust me, I've seen it done correctly and with 300ish shooters and no time delays. So if its taking you too much time to paint targets for shooters then you do not have the talent or logistics to put on a large match, and should rethink your plan. and you're right this horse is dead and no amount of firsthand experience for a properly run match, is going to change the minds of others. trapr You may be right. Just because it can be done, that doesn't mean I/somebody might know how to do it. How about, instead of beating this horse complaining about how folks don't get it right... Replace that verbiage and effort with posting up the right way to do it. Do that every single time this comes up. It seems to come up enough that you/somebody could save the text and copy and paste it in to the thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No.343 Posted May 2, 2010 Author Share Posted May 2, 2010 That would be great. I've ROed two of of Trapr's matches and I think that we should all read what he has to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted May 3, 2010 Share Posted May 3, 2010 (edited) Flex, i've said it time and again and posted how it can be done, and so have others,...... frankly I'm sick and tired of people who don't know telling me it can't be done, or it takes too long, or its too expensive. So if someone wants to look up past topics they will find out how to do it right, until then, it appears that status quo will be the rule. Just like having a back up plan for weather or having to decide which stages you might eliminate in a match in order to have it flow on time, having a realistic time for stage reset is required for fairness, instead of trying to cram more rounds and targets into a match, consider what you as a MD can do to make the match more enjoyable for EVERYONE, saying that its the same for all does not make the match more enjoyable. Besides don't we do this for FUN!!! Trapr Edited May 3, 2010 by bigbrowndog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blockhead Posted May 11, 2010 Share Posted May 11, 2010 I know this doesn't solve the entire problem, but how about the use of coru-plast backers like we've seen at FB3G and BRM3G for the LR rifle targets. They seem to give the iron sight shooters good visibility and don't require too much maintainance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiggerJJ Posted May 11, 2010 Share Posted May 11, 2010 (edited) YES!!! yellow please! behind black targets... jj Edited May 11, 2010 by RiggerJJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbrowndog Posted May 11, 2010 Share Posted May 11, 2010 Charlie, just try and keep the targets black, not gray. thanks for trying!!!!!!! Trapr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Sierpina Posted May 11, 2010 Share Posted May 11, 2010 Charlie, just try and keep the targets black, not gray. thanks for trying!!!!!!! Trapr I've done my part to keep them black....by missing the darn things! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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