Saiga 12 vs Benelli

[shooterbenedetto]

Been thinkin abut going back to 3 gun. I see now that

there's plenty of mods on the saiga and I know that

its a big advantage in three gun if you can load fast!

there's even a 20rd and 30rd drums avail! of course RELIABILITY

counts for everything..Has saiga prove that yet?

what would you pick? need opinions. Thanks.

[bigbrowndog]

The winner of the High Plains Shotgun Challenge in Open used a Remmy tube gun, there was a Saiga running against him but it had issues I believe, I would pick a Benelli or if you can find one a "MOLOT"

Trapr

[Jesse Tischauser]

Check the XRail out. http://www.xrailbyrci.com/I got to shoot with Mark this weekend and he mentioned he had a 31 round XRail for a benelli. I might have to convert the M1 to Open for next year. Marks gun ran great all weekend.

[Mark K]

I am newest of the new to 3-gun, and really only plan to shoot our local matches. My decision to choose Saiga, was simple. I do not have tons of range time, or dryfire time to tell you the truth, and I decided that acquiring and maintaining the speed-tube reload skills needed for a tube feed Open shotgun was not going to happen, and would just lead to aggravation at matches. A Saiga with a Magwell like R & R racing's that loads and unloads like an AR rifle was the ticket. I shot one match with a friends 1100 with speed tubes, and to reload 9 rounds, you have to load a 6 tube and a 3 tube (hoping both go well). With a Saiga, I can slam in one 10rd (or 20 if allowed in the match), and I am done.

Downside, is $$$. As far as I can tell for a fully tricked out S-12 you are going to pay about twice what you will for a Benelli. However, I just bought my S-12, added the R&R magwell/mag release, 3 modified 12rd mags, R&R AR stock and grip, TAPCO trigger, and a screw on muzzle break, and with a little fine tuning, I am going to be in business for about the same price as an off the shelf Benelli.

Just my newbie opinion of course. Just telling you my line of thought.

If you are shooting Area 6 this weekend, drop me a PM, and I will have it with me and you can check it out.

Mark K.

[Mark K]

Check the XRail out. http://www.xrailbyrci.com/I got to shoot with Mark this weekend and he mentioned he had a 31 round XRail for a benelli. I might have to convert the M1 to Open for next year. Marks gun ran great all weekend.

I am just wondering if such a thing would violate the USPSA rule of more than 11rds in the gun. Probably not, as it would not be much different than a mag coupler.

Would be be heavy though.

Mark K.

[GentlemanJim]

My Saiga is 20" shorter, 2lbs lighter and recoils softer than my JP 1100 open gun.

It loads in half the time or less...shoots slugs like a laser and runs 100%...first time every time!

I just cant see where a tube fed gun can compete with that

Jim

[maineshootah]

My Saiga is 20" shorter, 2lbs lighter and recoils softer than my JP 1100 open gun.

It loads in half the time or less...shoots slugs like a laser and runs 100%...first time every time!

I just cant see where a tube fed gun can compete with that

Jim

+1

[Jesse Tischauser]

My Saiga is 20" shorter, 2lbs lighter and recoils softer than my JP 1100 open gun.

It loads in half the time or less...shoots slugs like a laser and runs 100%...first time every time!

I just cant see where a tube fed gun can compete with that

Jim

Are these for sale on your website?

[SinistralRifleman]

A working Saiga has a lot of advantages. For a novice I think changing mags is easier and more consistent than using tech-loaders.

Unless you have patience and a machine shop, you might be better off buying one from Jim ready to rock. No two of them are the same and whenever I've gotten a new one there is always some weird stuff to figure out.

[Doug H.]

I think one of the reasons you see Benellis still winning in 3 gun matches against Saigas is that the top shooters haven't switched yet. A top shooter with a Benelli is still a force to recon with. For newbies like me, the Saiga is much easier to learn and has let me compete against the big guys. I'm not winning big matches, but I am finishing at a higher percentage than I did in Tactical.

Doug

[smokshwn]

I have one of Jim's Firebird Saiga's and it runs like a freight train. I have only had it a short timebut there are several advantages over the tube gun.

1) Reloads are faster for normal humans. I know Jerry Michulek does a reload with a four round stick in 1.3-1.4 secs but I am consistently hitting 1.8-1.9 for a twelve round mag. The fastest I was able to get with my Benelli was around 2.0-2.2 for a four round stick and 3.0 for an 8 round stick.

2) Length and balance. The Saigas are significantly shorter than the any of the tube fed guns for a given capacity. Also if you want to try the Xrail you are carrying the extra rounds on the end of the gun, whereas the extra rounds on the Saiga are in between your hands. That is a significant difference when talking about transitioning the weapon and how it will mount and balance.

3) I haven't run mine extensively yet but it is quite obvious from a design standpoint that the one thing the Saiga platform was meant to do is run. On one hand they may be clunky and sloppy, but that translates into a gun that runs with little regard to its environment, ammo, or state of cleanliness.

4) Last but certainly not least, with my Firebird Saiga my manual of arms is as close to an AR as you get. This allows much easier transitioning from platform to platform.

The one disadvantage that is staring at all of us Saiga shooters is how best to carry mags and take care of all the little operational differences that come with changing platforms. This should be shortlived though as more folks push the development.

[shooterbenedetto]

I think I will go for the Saiga and save the headache

for tech reloads. I also think that the transition would be

so much easier as far as grip and stock as you can put

the same one as what you have on your AR15.. SAIGA RULES!

Dont know if this is true but I think Taran is switching to

Saiga is he?

Edited April 14, 2010 by shooterbenedetto

[davidwiz]

Check the XRail out. http://www.xrailbyrci.com/I got to shoot with Mark this weekend and he mentioned he had a 31 round XRail for a benelli. I might have to convert the M1 to Open for next year. Marks gun ran great all weekend.

%! $700 and it weights 2 lbs empty!

[bigbrowndog]

I heard of a saiga that ran 100% every time but then I saw it possum up!!!

PS. the only box mag guns I've seen run very well were MOLOT's, not Saiga's

if you want to see cutting edge box mag guns go to the PanAm. in July.

Trapr

[Jesse Tischauser]

Check the XRail out. http://www.xrailbyrci.com/I got to shoot with Mark this weekend and he mentioned he had a 31 round XRail for a benelli. I might have to convert the M1 to Open for next year. Marks gun ran great all weekend.

%! $700 and it weights 2 lbs empty!

A Saiga that will run like Jim's will cost 50% more than a new Benelli M2 with the 20 round Xrail. Not much you can do about the weight though.

[Jesse Tischauser]

if you want to see cutting edge box mag guns go to the PanAm. in July.

Trapr

Can I catch a ride?

[SinistralRifleman]

I heard of a saiga that ran 100% every time but then I saw it possum up!!!

Mine runs fine as long as I don't trust the damn thing. Start trusting it and it will show you the error of your ways.

[GentlemanJim]

Any shotgun will choke from time to time

I have seen many benellis choke..as well as Fn and Remmys

The Saiga is a strange duck, each one has its own personality, but they can be made to run quite well.

Saigas also dont death jam...a flash on the charging handle, and away you go

I have seen some UGLY jams in tube guns..

Jim

[Bryan 45]

Jim, ask Shaun at Cav Arms about the death jam. I think he experienced one at Benning w/ a Saiga. I don't remember the details though, other than it won him a new t-shirt.

Edited April 14, 2010 by Bryan 45

[Fireant]

I have a R&R S-12 and the ONLY jams I have had were caused by 1 mag. It will not feed the third round from that mag ever. When I remember to leave that mag at home it runs and runs and runs. I have gotten to where I don't like iron sights or loading a shotgun 1 shell at a time. Oh yeah, outlaw matches rule!!!! Nothing like having a 20 round mag and not being able to use it.

[THM7]

With the Saiga I found that using Remington Nitro Premier (Gold Hull) increased my reliability to pretty much 100%. There is a bit of a learning curve with the Saiga but once you figure things out it is more fun to shoot 3gun with IMHO. I also have a Benelli M2.

[SinistralRifleman]

The only normal malfunctions I've experienced with the Saiga have required slapping the bolt forward or racking it. I've never had a total system failure with a proven gun. Out of the box I have had some messed up stuff happen and had to send 3 different ones in for repair (occluded gas ports, not enough gas ports). This is why I said before unless you have a machine shop and patience you might be better off buying one ready to go. If you have one that runs, great! You can probably convert it yourself with minimal effort.

CAUTIONARY TALE:

The worst thing that I've had happen with a Saiga is have the hammer drop when I turned the safety off. Apparently this isn't completely unheard of with AK fire control parts; I asked several AK armorers about it and they had seen it happen before if there is any kind of debris in the fire control. I later found a piece of metal debris in the case with the gun that I am pretty sure was rattling around in there with it. The Saiga does have a lot of openings for stuff to get in there so inspect it regularly. I narrowly avoided a DQ with the impact being just outside the 3 meter zone. I have since started turning the safety off only when on the first target rather than when moving the gun to it.

Jim, ask Shaun at Cav Arms about the death jam. I think he experienced one at Benning w/ a Saiga. I don't remember the details though, other than it won him a new t-shirt.

Operator induced malfunction. He was clearing it to put it into a grounding barrel, and his hand blocked the live round from ejecting fully. It went back into the action and jammed between the bolt carrier and the barrel extension. He attempted to clear it, but couldn't get it out. He figured it was in an impossible to fire condition and grounded it; the ROs stopped him when he was almost done with the stage and said he was DQ'ed.

Had his hand been clear of the ejection port the round would have come out, he also should have asked the RO what he should do with it in that condition.

It is always harder for a gun to eject live cartridges than spent ones. I rotate my Saiga to the side slightly when clearing it on a stage to make sure the live round comes out.

Edited April 14, 2010 by SinistralRifleman

[Bryan 45]

Thanks for the clarification, Russell.

None of my equipment is operator-error proof either!