Best course of action when encountering illegal stage?

[frag316]

I don't think that's a big deal--my question would be whether you're making more than 8 available from one spot or would the reset require more than 8 from that spot?

Again, given the limitations, I don't think it's a huge deal.

[glockified]

I have to drive at least an hour to any USPSA match. I would appreciate knowing ahead of time if there are illegal stages so I can decide whether or not I want to go. It is frustrating traveling to a match expecting to shoot USPSA and then arriving to find something different.

Edited June 25, 2014 by glockified

[WashingtonShooter]

Well, I will say this to kinda throw a wrench into some of the suggestions. I know of an MD who ran (and pretty sure is still running matches) at least one illegal stage and usually more at every one of his USPSA matches, did it knowingly and didn't care, refused to listen to anyone about it, didn't allow anyone to do stages or change the illegal stages to help out. If you pissed him off bad enough, he would tell you not to come back. So, your options are real easy in this situation, shut up and shoot or don't go out in the first place. I will give him one thing. He was consistant in his ways. You knew what to expect. Worst case scenario for this question does exist. And the only thing to do then is accept it as it is and shoot or not go out in the first place.

Speaking as an MD, I prefer to be told about issues. I also like to received stage designs once and a while too. Why is it so many don't design stages at all?

I know of one of those too!

I've recently had the same problem, an affiliated club with an MD that only sets up basic stages, and will change a stage halfway thru a match. Like was mentioned earlier, bringing up the issues only gets you ran out. At least everybody knows what to expect.

I even tried the show up early and set up a stage, only too have it dumbed down, because it was 'too complicated'. I guess disappearing ports that made you think and move where too much

Teehee , I think I shot one of those matches... or three..

[copperhead471]

I guess I really need to take a calm my ass down pill in the future then. When I drive 1.5 hours + one way to get to a level I USPSA match I expect it to follow the rule book and have legal stages. When I decide to go to a non USPSA match I make that decision knowing the rules could be spotty at best. I was at a level I match once that required me to have 5 mags to finish the stage, I just happened to be shooting limited minor and only had 3 with me. I should never be required to need that many mags shooting limited and be told if I don't like it then don't shoot it. I run a local match and spend every night the week leading up to the match designing stages that are legal, so it really gets my blood presure up when another MD will not take the steps to fix the problem. Seeing everybody's comments makes me think I should just be quiet and let it go. Being the rule follower I am, that is going to take some work so bear with me(that's for the locals that might read this).

USPSA matches should follow USPSA rules. Aside from the very limited exceptions in the rule book, where in that same rule book does it read that Level 1 matches don't have to follow this requirement? Too many MDs just let it slide because it's a lot less work to just go with poor design than to work with the stage designers to make the stages legal. Often, it is fairly easy to make the stage legal by adding a few fault lines and a wall or two. I've seen matches go from having consistently poor, illegal designs to consistently good and legal designs with just a little intervention by the MD. If shooters are traveling and spending $20 on a match fee, they can and should expect the stages to be legal. This doesn't mean the criticism has to be shrill or disrespectful. It should not be. But it should be made calmly and consistently so MDs get the message!

[Ultimo-Hombre]

When I travel to a match The biggest thing I notice is whether the RO's, RM, or MD are professional and courteous.

I worry less about stage design than I do about proper range commands, and safety.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate well designed stages that conform to the rule book.

For example I spent a day in the car to shoot another clubs monthly match. One of the stages had you in a shooting box, the COF was to engage 12 targets, mandatory reload between every two targets, 4 freestyle, 4 SHO, 4WHO, all in one string. "legal"? I don't think so but hey if SS guys have to reload 6 times to get thru a stage I guess I can too. The thing that upset me was watching a guy during a different COF, he thought he had a squib ( on the clock) so he pulls the mag racks the slide and points his pistol at his eyeball to look down the barrel. No sh!t this guy is full on Elmer fudd pointing his gun at his face and the RO says " are you good?" He says "yup it's clear" he reloads and shoots the rest of the COF. The RO that watched him point his gun at his face and the rest of us behind the 180 was also the MD.

Here's the thing. I'm a guest at this range. They were working hard to get up and running. They are making the good fight against all those d-bags that would see us never excersize our second amendment rights. Criticism is a sharp sword, I politely will help these folks, but to be rude sets us back.

So I say be thankful if your biggest problem is more than 8 shots from a single view, or a fault line. Be part of the solution!

[copperhead471]

When I travel to a match The biggest thing I notice is whether the RO's, RM, or MD are professional and courteous.

I worry less about stage design than I do about proper range commands, and safety.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate well designed stages that conform to the rule book.

For example I spent a day in the car to shoot another clubs monthly match. One of the stages had you in a shooting box, the COF was to engage 12 targets, mandatory reload between every two targets, 4 freestyle, 4 SHO, 4WHO, all in one string. "legal"? I don't think so but hey if SS guys have to reload 6 times to get thru a stage I guess I can too. The thing that upset me was watching a guy during a different COF, he thought he had a squib ( on the clock) so he pulls the mag racks the slide and points his pistol at his eyeball to look down the barrel. No sh!t this guy is full on Elmer fudd pointing his gun at his face and the RO says " are you good?" He says "yup it's clear" he reloads and shoots the rest of the COF. The RO that watched him point his gun at his face and the rest of us behind the 180 was also the MD.

Here's the thing. I'm a guest at this range. They were working hard to get up and running. They are making the good fight against all those d-bags that would see us never excersize our second amendment rights. Criticism is a sharp sword, I politely will help these folks, but to be rude sets us back.

So I say be thankful if your biggest problem is more than 8 shots from a single view, or a fault line. Be part of the solution!

I understand your view but I would argue that allowing someone to point a handgun at his own head during a course of fire, then continue to shoot is not "fighting the good fight." It is a flagrant disregard for the rule book and the safety of not only the shooter and the RO but also the rest of the squad and any spectators who were unlucky enough to be standing in back of the shooter. What kind of an impression might this make on newcomers to our sport to see this kind of spectacle? If tolerating this kind of behavior is part of the solution, I want none of it.

Fighting the good fight is giving the USPSA rule book the respect it deserves. Shooters join our organization and take the time and expense to travel to matches, practice their skills, read Front Sight Magazine, invest in the proper equipment etc. etc. because they buy into the type of shooting experience USPSA provides. Our common understanding of what that experience is comes from the rule book and only the rule book. Deviating from it in course design, safety, competitor equipment and all the other categories covered in the rules does a disservice to the shooters who expect the rules to be followed. If MDs don't want to abide by the rule book, then they should not advertise their competitions as USPSA matches. The advertisement should read something like this:

MATCH THIS WEEKEND

Most but not all USPSA rules will apply. We're not going to specify exactly which rules won't apply because that would entail writing an alternative rule book. Besides, we don't want to be pinned down by a bunch of rules anyway. Come out and shoot with us. It'll be lots of fun as excitement will stem not only from shooting but also from the experience of watching the ROs fly by the seat of their pants as they attempt to figure out which USPSA rules they will honor this weekend.

[PatJones]

I have no problem with unforeseen situations. The wind comes up and blows over half the walls? What the hell, we're all here lets shoot. But I have a problem with poorly planned stages. A little thinking can usually fix most stage ideas, and that fix usually makes for a better stage with more options.

[Ultimo-Hombre]

When I travel to a match The biggest thing I notice is whether the RO's, RM, or MD are professional and courteous.

I worry less about stage design than I do about proper range commands, and safety.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate well designed stages that conform to the rule book.

For example I spent a day in the car to shoot another clubs monthly match. One of the stages had you in a shooting box, the COF was to engage 12 targets, mandatory reload between every two targets, 4 freestyle, 4 SHO, 4WHO, all in one string. "legal"? I don't think so but hey if SS guys have to reload 6 times to get thru a stage I guess I can too. The thing that upset me was watching a guy during a different COF, he thought he had a squib ( on the clock) so he pulls the mag racks the slide and points his pistol at his eyeball to look down the barrel. No sh!t this guy is full on Elmer fudd pointing his gun at his face and the RO says " are you good?" He says "yup it's clear" he reloads and shoots the rest of the COF. The RO that watched him point his gun at his face and the rest of us behind the 180 was also the MD.

Here's the thing. I'm a guest at this range. They were working hard to get up and running. They are making the good fight against all those d-bags that would see us never excersize our second amendment rights. Criticism is a sharp sword, I politely will help these folks, but to be rude sets us back.

So I say be thankful if your biggest problem is more than 8 shots from a single view, or a fault line. Be part of the solution!

I understand your view but I would argue that allowing someone to point a handgun at his own head during a course of fire, then continue to shoot is not "fighting the good fight." It is a flagrant disregard for the rule book and the safety of not only the shooter and the RO but also the rest of the squad and any spectators who were unlucky enough to be standing in back of the shooter. What kind of an impression might this make on newcomers to our sport to see this kind of spectacle? If tolerating this kind of behavior is part of the solution, I want none of it.

Fighting the good fight is giving the USPSA rule book the respect it deserves. Shooters join our organization and take the time and expense to travel to matches, practice their skills, read Front Sight Magazine, invest in the proper equipment etc. etc. because they buy into the type of shooting experience USPSA provides. Our common understanding of what that experience is comes from the rule book and only the rule book. Deviating from it in course design, safety, competitor equipment and all the other categories covered in the rules does a disservice to the shooters who expect the rules to be followed. If MDs don't want to abide by the rule book, then they should not advertise their competitions as USPSA matches. The advertisement should read something like this:

MATCH THIS WEEKEND

Most but not all USPSA rules will apply. We're not going to specify exactly which rules won't apply because that would entail writing an alternative rule book. Besides, we don't want to be pinned down by a bunch of rules anyway. Come out and shoot with us. It'll be lots of fun as excitement will stem not only from shooting but also from the experience of watching the ROs fly by the seat of their pants as they attempt to figure out which USPSA rules they will honor this weekend.

I'm with you amigo.

Trust me, i addressed what issues I could.

I agree we need to strive to follow the rule book precisely. All I was trying to do was to point out some perspective.

[Nimitz]

If you'd tried to work with the MD and hit a brick wall you need to report him to your SC or AD and let them deal with it. Nothing wrong with holding and shooting matches that are not according to the USPSA rule book unless you advertise the match as a USPSA match and then you are obligated to follow the rules, period. Don't want to do that? Then you don't get to keep your USPSA affiliation .... As for shooter's, they will have to decide for themselves if they want to continue to shoot the match

[LexTalionis]

Two possible approaches:

Step 1. Shoot the illegal stage.

Step 2. Go talk to the MD / Stage Designer about the stage.

If you don't know him personally, be polite and offer solutions.

If he is your friend, flick him a ton of crap.

OR

Step 1. Shoot the stage in balls out, Hero-or-Zero mode

Step 2. Did you shoot the stage well?

If yes, shoot the rest of the match and go on with your life.

If no, ARBITRATE and get it tossed out.

[Blackhawk]

As a RM, I usually make the effort to check out all of the stages prior to the start of a local Level 1 match and then visit with the Match Director or designated Match Range Master to address the illegal stage before the shooting starts... If they are unwilling to do so, I withdraw from the match.

[Vlad]

I've been guilty of allowing my match to proceed with some stages that weren't strictly legal, mostly because I didn't notice that one location or another had to many shots required.

That happens when I don't notice it or I don't have the time to walk the stages myself after they've been built and I've asked someone else to do it and they missed it. If I see it before the match starts I try to fix it.

However what burns my ass is when people complain about this at the end of the match, specially people who walk the stages while they are being built and not offering a hand to help. It also annoys me bit when the people who complain about this sort of stuff are regulars at the match but almost never get their hands dirty.

If you run into an MD who does stupid crap on purpose, go shoot elsewhere. It is not worth arguing, it is not worth giving yourself an aneurism over it, walk away and if enough people do that then the match goes away.

If you see this happen accidentally, then take Flex's advice on page on of this thread and roll up your sleeves and offer your help. I can promise you that I won't ever turn down your offer of help, specially if you want to design stages and show up 2 hours earlier to build them.

[MarkCO]

Great post Vlad.

[Blackhawk]

As a USPSA Range Master, I would first engage the MD and attempt to "fix" the stage in question at a level 1 match. If successful, I'd shoot the match. If not successful, I'd withdraw from the match because it would not serve any good purpose to support this behavior.