runangun Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 I'm using a STI .40 with power pistol and 180gr bullet shooting limited class, I want to change to either Vihta Vuori N320, or Hodgdon Titegroup or Clays. Anybody have any luck with these powders? Also I"m starting to shoot production class. I'm using 2 guns, a Para LDA in 9mm and a Beretta Elite 2 in 9mm. Using the same powders does anybody have any suggestions on what to use? I'm thinking of using 124gr or 147gr bullets. Thanks for any and all help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 Under the 180, Clays will feel very soft, but is inaccurate. N320 is sharper recoiling, but not bad, and much more accurate. For 9mm, N320 is better than Clays, which gave me bizarre results in all but poofy wimp loads. One of the many Titegroup users will have to help you on its suitability for the loads you mentioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 Titegroup will work fine. It's excellent for everything you listed. I use it in everything from my 9mm to my 44 mag. I *think* it may even work in 12 ga... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilTerry Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 I use Universal Clays in my STI 40 - with 200 gr Montana Gold - start around 4.5 grains and work up a load. Shoots clean, soft, accurate and meters well. On the 9 mm - is it really worth loading? With the deals available on case quantity 9-mm I can't see the economic justification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
runangun Posted January 8, 2004 Author Share Posted January 8, 2004 The reason I ask about 9mm is I live in Buffalo and we have to shoot indoors 6months a year, so were limited on what you can buy off the shelf for indoors. So were forced to reload 9mm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Hayden Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 Add me to TiteGroup users for the 9mm - it's cheap and works well. The 9mm shoots so soft, it would be hard for me to tell if one powder/bullet combo was beter. As long as it makes power factor and groups well: I go as cheap as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 TG is likely the safest of the powders mentioned. And, it works great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Larry Cazes Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 I can vouch For Hodgdons universal clays. Today I chrono'ed from 4.8 to 5.4 grains of Uclays, 180 grain westcoast plated, Winchester Small Pistol primer, and mixed headstamp range brass. The best load, 5.1 grains, averaged 171PF with a minimum 169.1PF and maximum of 175.4. The velocity spread measured 46fps. Not too bad an ES with mixed brass. 100% function in my SV with no pressure signs. The best 15 yard rested 5 shot group measured 1.1 inches. I have 6 pounds of this powder left from an old project and it looks like I'll stick with it for now. Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 Just got back from the range to try out some SV .40/ 180 grn loads (could not chrono sadly). Powders used: Titegroup and N320 w. Ranier 180s and Zero 180 JHPs. FIRST: WARNING!! STAY AWAY FROM CLAYS IN MAJOR .40!! Don’t take my word alone for it, look at Jeff Maass' website and reloading data: http://home.columbus.rr.com/jmaass/index.html There, you will find Jeff’s Clays (straight Clays of course) warning as follows: “In particular, you are urged to avoid any load using Hodgdon CLAYS for IPSC-velocity .40S&W loads. Although many of the ‘Super Squad’ shooters are using Clays, Hodgdon’s loading data shows a maximum IPSC power factor of 153 for CLAYS. Although it is possible to load to a power factor of 165 using CLAYS, especially in guns that allow a cartridge overall length of 1.200” and greater, there are FAR SAFER options available with the medium and slower burning powders.” He adds the following: “.40S&W for IPSC Major. Powder Choices When it comes to selecting a powder to use in loading a new caliber, reloaders tend to try to use whatever powder they have on hand or which they have traditionally used for other calibers. In gathering these loads, I received numerous reports that the .40S&W is dangerously unpredictable when loaded to IPSC Major velocities with fast-burning powders and heavy bullets. These reports have come from enough independent sources that I have taken them to heart, and I have omitted from this list any load using the fastest powders (generally, those faster than VihtaVuori N320).” Anyway, the loads I used were from Jeff’s list and were slightly modified by backing off a tenth or two and often loading longer to as long as 1.220" OAL. Though they sound different, I found major loads using 320 and Titegroup to be quite similar as to feel and accuracy. Price wise, Titegroup wins hands down. Now for 9mm Minor, it IS worth reloading & Forum member “High Tech Redneck” and I both agree that the ultimate 9mm Minor load is a 147 over N310 powder. You will not find this published & do not even think of going much over 900 fps with this load (use only about 3.1 or 3.2 grns MAX and load it long to 1.155 - it will still fit in a Glock mag at that length). This is about as good a Minor load as is possible. The published Titegroup.147 loads are not bad either; I tried those before moving to N310. BTW, I spent 2 years working downtown & living in the old schoolhouse near Delaware & Utica. Buffalo was a fun town & I miss it sometimes. Be safe & shoot well. Best regards, C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 Phil, Larry, go sit in the corner. He said N320 and Clays. Not Universal Clays, not International Clays. If runangun or someone else were to use your posted data with the Clays powder originally mentioned, they'd be well into the danger zone, probably separating case heads at least. Carlos, poo-pooing Clays and then recommending N310 under a heavy neener bullet? For shame! Vihtavuori lists only one load for N310, under a 90 gr bullet. They don't even list any N320 loads for heavy bullets; they only go as fast as N330. Much the same for .40S&W; they list N320 loads for 155 gr bullets, but they only go as fast as N340 for heavier bullets. While we're on the subject, in .40S&W Hodgdon lists only one light bullet load for Clays, and it doesn't make Major. If you want to go by the book and be as safe as possible, Titegroup it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe D Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 Run, I am assuming you load your .40 long. If so I used 4.6 gr of Titegroup with a 180 gr plated bullet OAL of 1.200" to make major in a Kimber .40. I use 4.3 gr. @ 1.130" in my Glock 35. My favorite 9mm load is 3.0 gr of TG with a 147 gr. plated bullet OAL 1.130". This makes minor pf in my G34. I could not tell any difference recoil wise in TG and the various VV powders. There is a big difference is cost. TG runs $85 a keg vs over $125 for the VV powders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott G Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 The latest Sierra reloading manual lists loads for Clays, loaded short, for their 180g bullet, up to 1000 fps (180pf). And they also list it as the most accurate powder tested! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 Eric wrote: "Carlos, poo-pooing Clays and then recommending N310 under a heavy neener bullet? For shame!" Fair enough. The 310 load is no where near a book load & should be approached (if at all) with great caution. Not for the beginner by any means. The N310 charge is so low that double or even tripple charges might be possible if one were to make a mistake. Considering the pressure signs I saw at a charge of just 3.3 grns of N310, a double charge could well damage the gun & possibly the shooter. What would be a safe alternative to N310 for Minor 9mm? Book loads of Titegroup & 147s - shoots almost as well as N310 without the same risks. Not a bad choice at all. A cleaner load might be .1 grn under the min VV book load for N330. Certainly very safe and from a friend's testing, this load was a significant improvement over factory 147s as far as recoil and cleanliness. As for straight Clays, it was my favorite powder in .45 and I even loaded 200s to major using it (though like N310, that is NOT allowed in Hodgdon's book) and shot it out of a ramped, fully supported barrel STI Edge (very strong gun). However, as much as I like Clays, I agree w/ Jeff that Clays does not belong in Major .40 loads. -EDIT- Re read Scott G's comments - wow, that is something to think about. I believe Brian once used Clays back when powerfactor was 175 and some of the weaker, early generation .40 brass was still out there. I seem to remember a comment that the trouble with Clays had to do with temperature & that leaving it in the trunk in the Arizona sun in summer caused Clays pressures to skyrocket unpredictably. I believe he also mentioned that some shooters even resorted to keeping reloads in a cooler until just prior to shooting a stage. Brian and Jeff have far more experience & I still do not plan on trying straight Clays in high pressure .40 (though for low pressure rounds like .45ACP, it is still one of my favorites). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistral404 Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 I am not as experienced as others in this realm but my observations in two western states has been that VV320 is used more than anything else with the 20 or so folks I have shot with recently. .40 S&W, 5inch barrel, 180 gr, 4.8-5.1 VV320. 5.1 produced a power factor of 178 in my STI. It seems to be a cleaner burning powder to my uneducated eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 Scott, no way! Are you sure it's not Universal Clays? I'm not recommending it to runangun or anybody, but I burned a ton of Clays after USPSA lowered Major to 165. I loaded it under MG jacketed 180s, and I used a bigger charge than anybody I ever heard of. (Same for N320.) Never had a case sep or any problem. I did have some flat-ish primers starting to smear, which a long firing pin took care of. I would still use Clays if I didn't have that Minor incident at Area 2 one year and if it could hold the A zone at 40 yards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 On the 9 mm - is it really worth loading? With the deals available on case quantity 9-mm I can't see the economic justification. Reloading 9mm costs me about $60.-/1000. The cheapest price I can get for 9mm picked up from Ammoman.com is $119/1000 if I buy 10,000 rounds at a time. Sports Authority occasionally puts the stuff on sale and a friend of mine buys his for $105-11-/1000. I don't doubt that I can find it on sale mail order for about $80/1000 --- but figure that by the time they add shipping charges I'm close to a C-note. Last but not least, that's for factory 115s --- not my preferred 147 gr. 133 PF load. Factory 147s run about $150-175/1000. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davecutts Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 I use Hodgdons for almost everythig, kuz I can get it local all the time. I've shot some of the vit poweders and I can see there appeal, I just can't loose any sleep over not being able to get the powder I want when I want it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 9mm. $66.00 per Thousand using titegroup and Precision bullets - Federal primers and used brass. Thats with 147s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott G Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 Erik, Yup, I'm sure it was plain Clays, not the other Clays flavors. It also has data for 320 in 40cal, which not even VV publishes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Hayden Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 Erik, they have Clays and U Clays in the 5th Edition. Clays max is 5.0 for 1000fps, U Clays @ 1,100fps @ 6.0gr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the duck of death Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 *QUOTE* Under the 180, Clays will feel very soft, but is inaccurate. N320 is sharper recoiling, but not bad, and much more accurate. When I was doing testing for the softest powder I tried TG, Clays and N320. The N320 was the softest. This is not only my preception but also several other people who tried the load . The bullet used was the MG 180CMJ. I shoot major with a SVI and minor SSP/PRODUCTION with a G23/KKM barrel. The VV maunal doesn't list a load for the 180gr & N320. I have shot thousands with no problem or indication of pressure. WSR primers are used in the major load & WSP in the minor. My second choice would be Clays & if I had a hard time getting VV it wouldn't be a bad second choice. I did not shoot for accuracy only for the softest load, if the Clays proved inaccurate my second choice would change to TG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 Holy crap, 5.0 Clays under a 180 is about as hot as I've ever loaded, for about 180 PF. But that was at 1.200". Does the Sierra load use SAAMI length? 1.13"-ish? I don't suppose they pressure tested it. Scott, thanks. I'm curious what their N320 load data is? Heyyy, you don't suppose Clark works at Sierra now? (Inside joke for long-time members.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Hayden Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 Erik, 180 was/is a JHP, OAL 1.125 - no preasure data listed. n320 -max load - 5.2 = 1,000fs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott G Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 Well, you have to assume that they were pressure tested, it is Sierra after all, and I don't think they would publish data haphazardly (in spite of the recall of the 300 ultra mag data). The test gun used was a Para, so there is certainly nothing unusual there. I'm not quite sure what to make of it. Is our concern over Clay's pressure unfounded? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 "Heyyy, you don't suppose Clark works at Sierra now? (Inside joke for long-time members.)" hahahahahaha! Man you crack me up sometimes Eric! Seriously, I would never have expected a US based company to publish Major loads with straight Clays - especially at 1.125" and then to even suggest that 320 can be used at all in .40??? What gives? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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