different # of shots on each target in a COF. is it legal?

[spanky]

subject is not too descriptive so i'll do it here.

is it legal to have a COF call for a different number of hits on different targets? I.e. 3 rounds on T1 and T2, 2 rounds on T3-T6?

Obviously a reload is necessary to make it legal in terms of the new "speed shoot" COF but I just want clarification as to whether that is legal. i couldn't find anything in any searches.

thanks

[ima45dv8]

Yes.

[spanky]

Thanks!

[Joe4d]

The rule to cite would be 9.5.1 :

Basically it states 2 per paper unless the WSB specifies otherwise.

While legal it is a poor stage. I dont consider a stage like that a shooting challenge more of a mindfart challenge and wouldnt attend matches that got in a habit of doing stuff like that.

[Nik Habicht]

subject is not too descriptive so i'll do it here.

is it legal to have a COF call for a different number of hits on different targets? I.e. 3 rounds on T1 and T2, 2 rounds on T3-T6?

Obviously a reload is necessary to make it legal in terms of the new "speed shoot" COF but I just want clarification as to whether that is legal. i couldn't find anything in any searches.

thanks

Why would you want to?

[Vlad]

Why would you want to?

Because you like screwing with shooters pre-conceived notions and rhythms? Personally I like variety in my shooting challenges but some people get very used the idea of 2per, whine if they have to shoot from awkward angles, deal with cooper tunnels, face upside down targets, whatever. I think anything that adds a shooting challenge is good. Just look at how many problems people have with "Can you count?" shooting that 6th shot out of habit.

Also, because it is practical shooting and sometimes you have to shoot some things more?

[rlv65]

Why?

To get the round count up at a range / stage that has limited available space - more rounds = more fun!!

And, as practical shooters, we typically enjoy a challenge, whether it comes from moving targets, partially obscured targets, unique courses, etc.

I shot a Missouri COPS stage a few years back that only required 1 shot per target. After I burned through three mags (by shooting two per target) and wasn't half done yet, I realized what the problem was. The problem was not the course design, it was my lack of focus and not doing what the COF required. Since then, I pay more attention (and carry a spare mag in my pocket).

I wouldn't want it done on every stage, but a mind challenging stage every once in a while won't degrade the skills that we pursue.

[ebg3]

I was really surprised to read that this is not against the rules. It just seems wrong to allow in a cof.

EG

[Nik Habicht]

Why would you want to?

Because you like screwing with shooters pre-conceived notions and rhythms? Personally I like variety in my shooting challenges but some people get very used the idea of 2per, whine if they have to shoot from awkward angles, deal with cooper tunnels, face upside down targets, whatever. I think anything that adds a shooting challenge is good. Just look at how many problems people have with "Can you count?" shooting that 6th shot out of habit.

Also, because it is practical shooting and sometimes you have to shoot some things more?

Sure --- and I have no issues with stages that require three, four, or 17 rounds per target (except that 17's not legal...) --- but there's a problem with stages that require different quantities of rounds on some targets than on others....

It becomes more of a memory stage --- and not in a good way.....

[Nik Habicht]

Why?

To get the round count up at a range / stage that has limited available space - more rounds = more fun!!

And, as practical shooters, we typically enjoy a challenge, whether it comes from moving targets, partially obscured targets, unique courses, etc.

I shot a Missouri COPS stage a few years back that only required 1 shot per target. After I burned through three mags (by shooting two per target) and wasn't half done yet, I realized what the problem was. The problem was not the course design, it was my lack of focus and not doing what the COF required. Since then, I pay more attention (and carry a spare mag in my pocket).

I wouldn't want it done on every stage, but a mind challenging stage every once in a while won't degrade the skills that we pursue.

Yup -- and I'm o.k. with stages that mess with the established 2 per, as long as they do it consistently.....

And I've shot enough IDPA, that if someone wanted to do a really clean design (From the start engage these two targets with three rounds each, then proceed through the door and engage t3-9 with two rounds each and S1-4 until they fall) I'd be o.k. with that.....

I think it's more problematic when the extra hit targets are in the center of the stage, scattered, or when their inclusion basically forces everyone to shoot the stage in the exact same way......

Monkey with freestyle too much, and that's where I start to have issues....

[Flexmoney]

A little bit of goofy goes a ling way.

We are getting into stage design instead of rules... But, I'd suggest running some cof's with 3 scoring hits per paper and seeing how that goes.

[Vlad]

But, I'd suggest running some cof's with 3 scoring hits per paper and seeing how that goes.

Oh I have, its awesome. People get really flustered for some reason.

[BSeevers]

I like them and set them up a lot. As mentioned just saying 3 hits per target will see many shooters stumble and hesitate. Its not to "screw with" shooters its a challenge and helps you develop your visualization skills. It might show a shooter that he is a cadence shooter instead of a Call each individual shot, shooter.

Yea a match of these type courses would be weird but a course every once in a while is the same as a TX star or carrying a briefcase. Its just another challenge and is fair to every shooter.

[Chris Keen]

I don't see what the big deal here is. WSB says to do x, y, and z so .... that's how you shoot it. Every stage is a challenge, some in different ways than others. I've shot classifiers that were way worse.

[Alan Meek]

Here is a stage from the 2007 Area 8 Championship. If I am remembering correctly, this stage was discussed here for strategy before the match.

Alan

[ima45dv8]

USPSA not only allows it, but in some cases requires it.

http://www.uspsa.org/classifiers/99-63.pdf

http://www.uspsa.org/classifiers/99-09.pdf

[Chris Keen]

USPSA not only allows it, but in some cases requires it.

http://www.uspsa.org...fiers/99-63.pdf

http://www.uspsa.org...fiers/99-09.pdf

Here's a classifier we shot today that has 1 target requiring 2 shots, and the other 4 targets requiring 1 each. I thought it was a clever little stage that was something out of the ordinary.

http://uspsa.org/classifiers/99-02.pdf

[Pezco]

Yes, classifier 99-02 calls for this arrangement

[spanky]

Heck, I shot Night Moves a month or so ago. I should have remembered.

Nik, why? Because it'd be a bit more of a brainer. Let me clarify that I do not intend for it to be something that makes people upset.

This is the COF in question.

My intention is draw (or turn then draw) and engage only T2-T5 with 2 rounds each, reload then engage only T1 and T6 with 3 rounds each. I think this is "simple" enough that it won't get too many grumbles yet throws something in that you don't see often.

Initially this COF was going to be 1 ea reload 1 ea but I think this might be more fun.

.

Edited March 14, 2010 by spankaveli

[Nik Habicht]

Jeremy,

that looks like it could be fun --- and it shouldn't trip anyone up too badly. I was more concerned with a traditional field course requiring different number of rounds on some targets than others --- which might be a recipe for disaster (stage thrown out) without very careful planning and building....

[spanky]

Jeremy,

that looks like it could be fun --- and it shouldn't trip anyone up too badly. I was more concerned with a traditional field course requiring different number of rounds on some targets than others --- which might be a recipe for disaster (stage thrown out) without very careful planning and building....

I agree on all of the points you made. I can't see it being feasible to have varying hit requirements on a longer course.

[Dragoon]

I shot a stage at a match where full targets got two rds each and partials (either hard cover or obscured by no-shoots) got one each. I thought it worked well.

[GISMap]

If you have a lot of shooters, and you want a lot of shots on a single target, just be ready to replace that target mid match as it will become difficult to score properly if it gets taped up a lot. We usually shoot Classifier 06-03 once a year and it ends up getting pretty beat up.

http://magiccityactionshooters.org/06-03.pdf

Edited March 16, 2010 by GISMap

[rlv65]

But, I'd suggest running some cof's with 3 scoring hits per paper and seeing how that goes.

Oh I have, its awesome. People get really flustered for some reason.

After our club match yesterday, I may have to retract my above support for a "different" number of hits per target

Due to range flooding, we had a three stage match with one stage requiring 3 hits per target (21 rounds total). For extra entertainment, it was a "gun unloaded placed on table" start - and - all mags must be on the table at the start also. Just for fun, Mother Nature also threw in ankle deep mud which made backing up to shoot the third shot (after leaving too quick) a little more interesting.

However, from this stage, I do continue to learn from myself and others that:

Visualization is good if you remember to visualize the right number of rounds per target.

It is faster to shoot three per target than to shoot two per target and then go back through again shooting one per target.

Don't start your reload until you have taken all three shots from that position.

When you go back to make up the third shot, don't step on your prematurely released mag driving it into the mud.

People get really flustered for some reason!

At the end of the day, it was this stage that we were still talking about. Good time was had by all.